There's still some things need sorting but it's getting better

[Billy]

Jeeze you're a cunt Billy.

I'd like to see some entry numbers for when those other clubs have run events AT MANFIELD before I start pointing fingers at clubs/death figures. You are making very fuckin stupid statements by comparing apples and oranges.

Pretty sure you'd find the feilds at Tims Suzuki series were every bit as big and in some cases bigger than the Vic club,In fact it was Tim that introduced the 6 round winter series,Up until his series both the Vic club and Manawatu Orion only ran 3 round series,But as a reference,Late 80s National rounds run at Manfeild by Manfeild promotions under the watchful eye of Errol Conaghan,250 production feilds were upwards of 45 bikes on the grid,So was F3,

Cunt yes,Stupid NO!

[Drew]

Pretty sure you'd find the feilds at Tims Suzuki series were every bit as big and in some cases bigger than the Vic club,In fact it was Tim that introduced the 6 round winter series,Up until his series both the Vic club and Manawatu Orion only ran 3 round series,But as a reference,Late 80s National rounds run at Manfeild by Manfeild promotions under the watchful eye of Errol Conaghan,250 production feilds were upwards of 45 bikes on the grid,So was F3,

Cunt yes,Stupid NO!

Ok then, let's look at it differently. Name a death that was in any way, the fault of the club? Or significantly conteibuted to by the organisers. The reverse track red flag fuck up, was due to a completely stupid fuckin rule, saying return to the start finish line and stop when there is a red flag. The rest were all rider balls ups.

So don't start pointing fingers at Vic club for the shortcomings of other people is what I'm saying.

[Billy]

Ok then, let's look at it differently. Name a death that was in any way, the fault of the club? Or significantly conteibuted to by the organisers. The reverse track red flag fuck up, was due to a completely stupid fuckin rule, saying return to the start finish line and stop when there is a red flag. The rest were all rider balls ups.

So don't start pointing fingers at Vic club for the shortcomings of other people is what I'm saying.

There was quite a lot more involved with the incident on the reverse track,IE the clerk of the course was left too runhis first meeting with little experience and no back up,The radios didnt function as they should have and therefore there was no flag shown anywhere around the circuit other than the start/finish straight,The flaggie on the start/finish line remained stationary on the line instead of walking through the grid as it formed and was therefore unseen by the riders exiting the last corner,Oh and the track was no longer licensed to run in the reverse direction due to safety concerns,But your right of course,It would be unfair to blame the club directly for recent events,However,What if anything have they done to make things safer since round 1 this year??????

Furthermore,What rider training do the Vic club do in the area of safety and ettiquette,AMCC have their A.R.T days,MCI training is legendary,South Canterbury hold have a go days at Levels with extensive training,As do Otago motorcycle club.

[jellywrestler]

What if anything have they done to make things safer since round 1 this year??????

Furthermore,What rider training do the Vic club do in the area of safety and ettiquette

Billy, I certainly think they have done a bit in highlighting a few areas that are an issue, I for one (i'm not a Vic Club Member) wrote to Skunk with a track behaviour issue that I could see was 'an accident waiting to happen' and they brought this up at riders briefing. I've also over the last couple of meetings watched them head off to have a chat to someone who has erred, whereas in times gone by they didn't usually do so at all.
Riders Breifing has certainly included other don'ts more so than they used to, bear in mind here to much ranting at riders briefing pretty soon means a decline in attention spans..
Additional marshalls have been added out on the track since too.

Furthermore...
They have a couple of pages in the programme to be read by competitors, who else does that.

I certainly think they have stepped up a bit, there's still work to be done but that's always the case when safety is in the gunsights.

Graeme Spyda Staples Arseistant Commentator Vic Winter Series

[Billy]

Billy, I certainly think they have done a bit in highlighting a few areas that are an issue, I for one (i'm not a Vic Club Member) wrote to Skunk with a track behaviour issue that I could see was 'an accident waiting to happen' and they brought this up at riders briefing. I've also over the last couple of meetings watched them head off to have a chat to someone who has erred, whereas in times gone by they didn't usually do so at all.
Riders Breifing has certainly included other don'ts more so than they used to, bear in mind here to much ranting at riders briefing pretty soon means a decline in attention spans..
Additional marshalls have been added out on the track since too.

Furthermore...
They have a couple of pages in the programme to be read by competitors, who else does that.

I certainly think they have stepped up a bit, there's still work to be done but that's always the case when safety is in the gunsights.

Graeme Spyda Staples Arseistant Commentator Vic Winter Series

Yip,

Talk.talk,talk and whats that achieved???How do you,As one who's been around for a wee while,How do you think Errol would have handled it and do you think it would be a continual issue under his management?

Enough said on the subject,I have made my opinion known both offline and on and have left it in the hands of the officials standing committee,Now Ive got a Nationals series to organise .....so bye!!!

[Drew]

I like you Billy, you're a good cunt for the most part, but I really think that you're taking the new job too personally. I know it takes time out of your already stupid schedule, for little or no personal gain, but ya gotta ease up a bit I reckon. If I was in Andrew's spot right now, I'd be refusing to run another event based on what you've said, and what it implies.

Hopefully he is thicker skinned, and longer tempered than I am, 'cause I'd likely do everything I could to get the rest of the committee to pack it in too. And then everybody loses.

On the reverse track thing, a mate of mine who was one of the riders who plowed straight into the stopped traffic (Mitch something or other), I thought said that the flag was out at what was the final turn for the configuration, but because of where the flag point is no one really saw it. I really have to pay more attention and work on retaining the info that gets given to me.

[suzuki21]

Yip,

Talk.talk,talk and whats that achieved???How do you,As one who's been around for a wee while,How do you think Errol would have handled it and do you think it would be a continual issue under his management?

Enough said on the subject,I have made my opinion known both offline and on and have left it in the hands of the officials standing committee,Now Ive got a Nationals series to organise .....so bye!!!

I think riders from the central districts when racing need to "never go full retard" (Tropic Thunder 2008)

[slowpoke]

I get your point Slowpoke and the intent has merit but the way you have suggested to enforce the 'share the knowledge' idea I disagree with.

We are all at the riders briefing (well should be), we all hear Skunk warn us about not being lite on safety issues (especially going slow on track), we all should know what those are (or we shouldn't be on the track) and if we have a brain fade putting ourselves or others at risk we all know the potential consequences. that's it...simple.

When it comes down to uniformity with enforcement of any safety rules between clubs... who cares???? If VMCC run their events with a more strict outlook/consequence on safety than AMCC for eg, we all need to adjust our behavior according to each club we are riding with...much like 'playing to the ref' I suppose. I can tell you that if this were the case ALL other clubs would eventually lift their game (as would racers/teams) as it would highlight any unsafe practices they were ignoring if another club was enforcing them (BTW I don't believe any club takes safety lightly and this was merely a hypothetical example).

My main point is...when it comes down to it, in hindsight we all know what is safe and unsafe and by stopping a meeting to highlight these points to teams/racers we will essentially be achieving nothing apart from making a good day run like arse. The main problem I see is training a racer to not make dumb decisions whilst on track while NOT under duress. We can all make wrong decisions whilst on the track in the moment and the only thing that will stop this happening is experience, and learning from these. If on the other hand you make dumb decisions with no apparent reason for it, these need to be swiftly dealt to by the authority's in order to protect that rider and those who are racing with him/her. This will soon train that racer into good practices whilst on the track or eventually remove them from participating in racing. There is no point making an example of them on the day because 99% of the people racing that day already know whatever it is they did is not the smart thing to do.

Edited

I think maybe a email to the riders in between meetings explaining any issues that happened on the day that needed addressing might have merit but this involves more work for the club and essentially will be covered off in the next meetings riders briefing anyway so may not be required.

Yip,

I see your point but as Suzuki 21 has pointed out,Why would we bother introducing new rules and regs when the competitors are not following the ones we have now???The rulebook clearly states if you have an issue remove your machine from the track as soon as it is safe to do so,NOT continue on to the pits,I agree commonsense must be used,But when the riders are consistently told over and over again the same message and yet they continue to ignore it,Something has to be done,Also when your in charge of running the sport and youve issued a directive to tighten up on the safety rules,Following yet another needless death and your in the control tower and watch an incident unfold,To which the officials reaction is "Thats it we're sending him home",Only to see the same competitor being brought back in on the recovery vehicle after the next race,Is a little disressing,

As pointed out earlier,MCI and AMCC dont have these issues as they both do entry level training and the riders are taught about safety at the beginning,Not after a death.If you continue to do what you do,You'll always have what youve got,Sound familiar???Put simply,Since Manfeild opened in 1973,4 solo motorcyclists have been killed there while competing,3 were at Vic club meetings and all on the front straight,Only one of those was due to the rider losing control(Chris Dawes 1995) and do we need to count up the other incidents where riders have tailended other riders when theyve slowed in the middle of a straight???See my point yet???

Yep, agree pretty much with what you guys are saying. My concern isn't so much with any single rule though, it's about all the safety stuff. Riders briefings can't cover everything or the briefing would be 2 hours long. Which was what I was sort of meaning to get at with stopping the meeting to highlight any glaring or ongoing issue. After being there at the pit wall looking right at the last incident/impact, I never ever want to see something like that again, hence I couldn't give a shit if the meeting runs late if it stops another poor woman running down pit lane towards her broken husband. (my apologies if that sounds melodramatic but the look on that poor lady's face was heartbreaking)

I'm also thinking about the problem that most of us aren't full time racers and can't make every single round. I'm lucky if I make 1 in 3. It would be great to capture any learnings (as per the slip road red flag issue) and communicate them to those of us who weren't there. With the slip road thing there must still be racers involved in that race who don't know what the story was, and the significance of the red flag on the starting grid. I've read the rules but don't pretend to remember every intricacy so it's been helpful seeing it discussed on KB. We have email, it's not hard to set up a group address (it's already there for the Oily Rag/membership reminder, you could even include info in the Oily Rag), write one email and everyone is much the wiser. Just an idea anyway, I'm happy to do the work if someone from VMCC wants to PM me to discuss....or not, lol.

As you mention Billy, training needs to take greater importance. Bad news mate....you have PM, haha.

[Billy]

[QUOTE=slowpoke;11303926

As you mention Billy, training needs to take greater importance. Bad news mate....you have PM, haha.[/QUOTE]

Not bad news at all mate,It means I'm not the only one that see's a problem here.

I have spent a bit of time on the phone this morning with Karel Pavich from Pro rider and we are going too be working hard on a training scheme for the lower North Island and a graded licence system,Whereby,You cannot enter or race a 600 or Superbike until youve attended either a pro rider advanced training course or one of the other MNZ accredited courses like AMCC's ART days or MCI,South Canterbury,Otago training days,I will be talking at some stage in the near future with the people that run these schemes and formulating a plan to take too the board.

[Drew]

Not bad news at all mate,It means I'm not the only one that see's a problem here.

I have spent a bit of time on the phone this morning with Karel Pavich from Pro rider and we are going too be working hard on a training scheme for the lower North Island and a graded licence system,Whereby,You cannot enter or race a 600 or Superbike until youve attended either a pro rider advanced training course or one of the other MNZ accredited courses like AMCC's ART days or MCI,South Canterbury,Otago training days,I will be talking at some stage in the near future with the people that run these schemes and formulating a plan to take too the board.

Do the instructors have to be accredited trainers? Or will it be the same 'old boys club' as usual?

I like the idea, but if it's done half arsed it's a waste of time.

Four different orginisations you've mentioned there, is there any standardised curriculum they have to adhere?

Do current superbike riders need to do the course to carry on racing?

Yeah I'm a negative cunt, I do it on purpose!

[scrivy]

Not bad news at all mate,It means I'm not the only one that see's a problem here.

I have spent a bit of time on the phone this morning with Karel Pavich from Pro rider and we are going too be working hard on a training scheme for the lower North Island and a graded licence system,Whereby,You cannot enter or race a 600 or Superbike until youve attended either a pro rider advanced training course or one of the other MNZ accredited courses like AMCC's ART days or MCI,South Canterbury,Otago training days,I will be talking at some stage in the near future with the people that run these schemes and formulating a plan to take too the board.

Hi Billy,

I've read through all this.... phew!!
Safety should be paramount in all racers minds, I totally agree!

The rules at present allow a bucket racer to upgrade to a Superbike or F1 Sidecar and race at the Nats as long as they have 3 stamps in their logbooks. Absolutely crazy! But it’s still allowed.
But there are also other issues with the licensing - eg. do we ever check for colour blindness? Can people tell a green flag from a yellow or red flag? (Believe me, I know of a past racer that can't).

The Pro-rider or similar training can’t be bad thing, but please make sure it's not the only silver bullet we all want, and think will be the answer to this thread on safety issues.

I know of some very experienced riders that have caused some monumental crashes in the past. Steve Bron at Wanganui, and Pete the Pirate at Wanganui also. Both guys have raced for years - but caused crashes that quite simply could have killed more people. (PLEASE do not take this as a 'point the finger' at those two guys only), they are just some examples of experienced guys that fucked up in the heat of racing. Everybody fucks up at some point. Myself included I admit.
My issue with racers and the current system, is that if you ask a dozen of them a question on circuit procedures or safety, you’ll more than likely get 5 or 6 different replies back. Some of them common sense replies, some just absurd! (As you’ve read in this thread – again no finger pointing).
In qualifying at one race meeting a few years back, I was almost taken out by 3 competitors that did some crazy shit things, and they were oblivious to the perils of their actions! As a result, I did no more qualifying so I didn’t have to be out there with them.

I do not know what the Pro-rider teaches people, but competitors need to be made aware that there will always be repercussions/ramifications to their brain-fade actions on the circuit.
-How many competitors hold their line under brakes at 200+ kms into a corner – when there is a competitor going 40 kms faster about to pass on the inside?
-When slipstreaming, do you rely solely on the person in front to be your eyes? Pukekohe incident comes to mind.
-When you’ve broken down, do you put your hand up to let fellow competitors (and flaggies) know that you’re slowing?
-Do you stay off the racing line if you’re leaking oil?
-Do you have to stop at designated stop points under a red flag?
-Do you pull out of pit lane infront of other riders going at race speed?
-Do you go the wrong way down the track?
-Do you stop right on the edge of the track if you’ve broken down?

Some of the above stuff is racing 101 – BUT, how many people simply forget to do it?? Or realistically, know what to do – we all assume our fellow racers know the simple stuff. But newbies? WE (and I mean all ‘experienced’ racers) need to pass on our knowledge to avoid these stupid accidents taking place and taking lives.

Don’t just think that stupidity is rife in NZ either. I was leading a race at Eastern Creek back in April, and came around turn 2 – hit oil, and slid 30 feet sideways (was a bit fun at the time I admit), but I immediately raised my left arm (as did my passenger), to warn others behind us. I frantically waved and pointed to the oil on the track in front of us – and you could see heaps of it way infront – but about 10 rigs (with experienced guys aboard) looked at me, and decided they should race off at full steam instead………. We were expecting death around the next few corners!! Seriously! If a race leader puts his hand up frantically waving, should other racers take a split second to wonder why? They do if it's raining......
There are so many risks out there when racing, and we all need to make sure that everybody out there is up to speed. (Pun intended)

I know you will take this seriously Billy – and about time someone does.

Scrivy

[Kiwi Graham:Me]

Safety is an ever evolving area and so it should be, sometimes it evolves because of mistakes made by others.

AMCC run the ART programme that is primarily aimed at road riders wanting to up skill but we also cater for the novice racer who wants to enter the club series.
We have a couple of ‘accredited’ instructors but in the main they are simply experienced riders/racers with many other credentials attached to them be that police, armed forces or civilian with a passion and ability to pass on their knowledge. All are either invited to join or apply and are then either thanked for their interest or selected by some of the wise but not necessarily by the ‘old boys’ Drew.

We do run to a curriculum but are able to work 1:1 on specifics. For those that show a desire to go on and race they work with other experienced racers both past and present, the list of ‘Star Instructors’ that have helped in this area is huge (many of you reading this for instance).

The progression is gaining the MNZ race license and attending the first meeting.
This season we have tightened up the Clubmans class big time, ensuring those that want it get a mentor, lap times are closely monitored, Hi-Viz is to be worn by a novice for the first ten races even if during that time they progress out of Clubmans. Pre race sighting laps alongside an experienced racer for first timers. The list goes on.

For a long time the she’ll be right approach has been going on. Billy has stood up to take on the task and is dotting all the i’s and crossing all the t’s and to be honest it’s a breath of fresh air. Some of us have been busy playing ‘catch up’ and improving what we do, all the clubs are aiming for the same thing and are communicating well with each other. The end result I believe will be slicker operations from everybody and an increase is safety across the board.

With MNZ training and accrediting officials and Flaggies, graduated licensing and Clubs training and mentoring novice riders is a huge step in the right direction.
The thought that you or I could be lined up on the grid for a superbike race with a novice rider with a fat cheque book (all the gear and no idea) is a scary prospect as scrivy has alluded to.

Yep this new phase in our sport its going to be ‘uncomfortable’ at times but the light at the end of the tunnel will be even more appreciated when it arrives.

[SWERVE]

Whoa........... whats happening..... people on KB are talking sense at last.
As previosly said......... might make it a liitle uncomfortable in the beginning but soooooo beneficial in the long run.

[FROSTY:Me]

Another example was at Pukekohe racing...I was about to pass another racer on the inside at the kink at the back straight fully pinned out and this guy looked back at me and saw me coming fast, so decided to swerve into my line giving me no exit.. I missed the inside grass edge at $250kph'sh by mm's! He wasn't done though, he then swerved back the other way to cover the other side of the track after again looking behind to see me coming that side (although fairly far back as I was still shitting myself)...dumb...you bet...sent home for the day with a fine for doing dumb unsafe maneuvers...nope... but he should have been to think about why, and to train his brain out of this bad racing practice.

I can tell you for fact had the club officials actually SEEN this happen the person concerned would have been dealt with.
Its difficult to punish someone when its one persons word against another.

[FROSTY:Me]

Not bad news at all mate,It means I'm not the only one that see's a problem here.

I have spent a bit of time on the phone this morning with Karel Pavich from Pro rider and we are going too be working hard on a training scheme for the lower North Island and a graded licence system,Whereby,You cannot enter or race a 600 or Superbike until youve attended either a pro rider advanced training course or one of the other MNZ accredited courses like AMCC's ART days or MCI,South Canterbury,Otago training days,I will be talking at some stage in the near future with the people that run these schemes and formulating a plan to take too the board.

You mean to say that what Ive been promoting and recomending for the past 7 years is going to happen?
Just a thought do you realise that the way the moto TT trackdays are run means it would not take a lot of tweaking to have one "group" be designated "race training"
The flaggies would need tweaking up a bit to ensure they were using the correct flag and it could only ever be called a rider "training" day for odvious reasons.
I would even go so far as to say. Just like getting a pass in your BSH test before you get a road learners licence so you need to have passed your basic trackcraft test to get an MNZ licence.