Manfeild slip road use

[The Chow]

Hey Andrew, don't take it to heart eh? You and your crew do a great job considering you are basically trying to herd cats (racers) all day long.

FYI, I work in a noisy industry/environment where radio comm's are our primary means of communication and woopsy's at best result in "oh fuck" moments but at worst it's Piper Alpha/BP's Gulf of Mexico all over again. Ian's onto a good thing with controlling your environment, gawd knows we've had some shit go down and it's just complicated (or worse, missed altogether) when a group of blokes are yuckin' it up in the background. It takes a bit of discipline from the folks in the field too: if it concerns you you'll either know what's going on or the controller will speak/radio to you directly. It doesn't help if 5 people are offering different solutions and the other 5 are asking what's going on. The guy in the big chair has the big picture, so needs to be given radio space to make whatever is wrong right again.

Sorry, don't mean to tell you how to suck eggs, I wasn't even there. I just know we drill/exercise stuff every second week offshore and 9 years down the track we still get learnings coming out, so it's gonna be even harder for you and your stirling band of volunteers only getting together every so often. At the end of the day you've had a great learning opportunity where nobody was hurt so just take what you can from it and keep up the good work.

Slowpoke couldn't agree more (hell thats not right, is it?) LOL

[yungatart]

T


As of October 2012 (just over a month) we can't use unqualified marshals in a flag point. And we don't have enough qualified marshals. And there's no training until sometime around July-November next year. I'm not sure how to get around that yet for Bridgestone Winter Series 2013 and all the other events we've booked such as Track Days, Nationals etc.

Surely 1 qualified marshal per point, with an unqualified/in training marshal, would suffice at this stage, especially since qualified marshals are relatively new in the scheme of things.

[JayRacer37]

Doesn't matter a toss the RED FLAG instructions in the programme clearly says you must use the slip road.
Everybody should've been riding around at a pace expecting to use the slip road and had their hand up, or leg out accordingly.

This simply highlighted the fact that pretty well no-one on the track had bothered to read the riders briefing didn't it?????

As far as I was concerned, at that point (with me, myself and I) in my helmet, it wasn't a red flag situation as we had had no incident, it was another lap to reform a grid. Now, in the past (and this is now a number of years ago) that was the norm - re-do the lap, grid up, get a good start together and away we go.

And right there I see the problem,NO supplementary regs or riders briefing may contradict the rulebook,As I have not seen the said riders briefing in the program,I cannot comment further,BUT if it contradicts the rulebook then it needs to be changed immediately,Rule 22.7.1,All competitors still running will continue on the current lap at a safe considerably reduced speed to the pits,The riders briefing mentioned above is NOT something I signed off on in the supp regs supplied too me.

One rule for every track. A red flagged race ALWAYS means continue right round the circuit slowly and form up in the pit lane dummy grid.

I feel there is no recourse on riders doing what we are all meant to be fluent in, the rule book.

The rule book does indeed say a full lap is required under red flag. Seems silly to me to make everyone ride through the incident when it can be avoided but that's the rule.

Several things are clear after Saturday:
1. Not everyone listened at Riders Briefing.
2. Not everyone knows the rule book. (There should have been questions if they did )
3. Even officials get it wrong.

I am at fault for part of the mess on Saturday. In hindsight it was unclear to the riders (perfectly clear to me... I knew what I wanted and was saying on the radio. That didn't translate well into hand signals unfortunately). Lesson learnt.

We have been saying that with a red flag to use the slip road if possible. Our reasons are to clear half the track so we can get at the incident promptly (should it be in that part of the circuit). Does anyone really want to ride past what may be a nasty incident and (maybe) hold up the ambulance?

We will be reviewing the practice of the slip road use. We will NOT use it with RED FLAG incidents. I would like to continue to use it at the end of races simply because we can fit more in the programme. The flag marshal at Point Four should not go onto the track. I can't tell if they do or not sometimes due to the sun and the camber. They should stop near the edge of the track. As I said we are going to review it and this may or may not change.

But we CANNOT use the slip road with a RED FLAG incident.

Jay: Most of the marshal's are trained and qualified. Sometimes the communication is suspect. There was a lot going on over the radio and it was hard to tell who was saying what. That's why it looked like there was trouble with the gate etc...
As of October 2012 (just over a month) we can't use unqualified marshals in a flag point. And we don't have enough qualified marshals. And there's no training until sometime around July-November next year. I'm not sure how to get around that yet for Bridgestone Winter Series 2013 and all the other events we've booked such as Track Days, Nationals etc.

As I say above, I never considered it a red flag situation so my thoughts on this are unrelated to the above, but definitely a full lap is required in my head for a red flag. As much as anything, if there is carnage elsewhere, the last thing race control need is to worry about whether the rest of track is clear so they can wave a group through from the slip road. Also, with bikes at uncertain points on the track you probably can't release the ambulance until that is under control so to me it is as likely to hold the ambulance up us sitting in the middle of a field waiting for direction.

Ask Robbie Bugden if its just R1's that do that Jay!

Yeah true that, after finishing a race flat out there is a lot of heat soak and I HATE that idling and waiting...a full lap would be greatly preferable from a mechanical and cooling point of view...

[Drew]

Surely 1 qualified marshal per point, with an unqualified/in training marshal, would suffice at this stage, especially since qualified marshals are relatively new in the scheme of things.

From what I read, two hours is qualified yes? Comfy as with a noob beside a noob+2 hours.

[Skunk]

I fully understand what you're saying Jay and I don't disagree you. So far this season we have had two riders hit the pit entry wall. In one case having the bikes in the slip road was good in that no one had to ride over the poor guy and his bike to get to pit lane!

With the other one we had the ambulance to him and the bike recovered before the race ended. Not too sure the riders even knew what had happened.

Shows that strange things can happen and no one rule will suit all. By using the slip road we can access Higgins about 40 secs earlier. Not much I know but if it was you laying there... Anyway - moot point as the rules are the rules.

One thing I would say though is that under a Red Flag you are supposed to be travelling slowly and ready for anything. So in theory there should not be a problem with the slip road. But as you say - how the hell were the riders to know it was a Red Flag situation? I knew - I called it! In hindsight I can see the confusion.

I don't think anyone did anything 'wrong' - it was just a mess. And sometimes you get that. Thankfully no damage to anyone or anything.

[Skunk]

From what I read, two hours is qualified yes? Comfy as with a noob beside a noob+2 hours.

What?... no understandy mister.

[Billy]

but definitely a full lap is required in my head for a red flag. As much as anything, if there is carnage elsewhere, the last thing race control need is to worry about whether the rest of track is clear so they can wave a group through from the slip road. Also, with bikes at uncertain points on the track you probably can't release the ambulance until that is under control so to me it is as likely to hold the ambulance up us sitting in the middle of a field waiting for direction.

Couple of points in the above statement for everybody to consider,

1/ Its not whats is in your head thats required for a redflag incident,Its whats in the rulebook,Assuming everybody's read it,Then they'll all be thinking the same thing and any chance of an incident is greatly averted.

2/ Once in the slip road,EVERYBODY should stop and remain behind the whiteline until signalled its clear to cross the track,No matter how or why you ended up there,Thats the protocol,NO EXCEPTIONS,I observed at the last round a number of riders pull up between the whiteline and the edge of the track while waiting to be signalled to cross,There is a strict protocol to be followed for the use of that section and if your not sure,Ask at riders briefing or approach the riders rep for clarification,Do not enter the race control room and start asking questions while they are running the meeting.

[Drew]

What?... no understandy mister.

Someone posted that the marshall course was a two hour group session.

That isn't a lot. I know that these people are giving up there time for free, but it's for something they enjoy lets not forget, motorsport.

So someone with no actual idea, but who has talked about racing for a couple hours is now allowed to flag a point on a track. Youngatart suggests putting that squid with a complete squid and all will be hunky dori.

Doesn't sound ideal.

[MSTRS:Me]

Someone posted that the marshall course was a two hour group session.

That isn't a lot. I know that these people are giving up there time for free, but it's for something they enjoy lets not forget, motorsport.

So someone with no actual idea, but who has talked about racing for a couple hours is now allowed to flag a point on a track. Youngatart suggests putting that squid with a complete squid and all will be hunky dori.

Doesn't sound ideal.

Actually, it is a little more than that, but you are sort of right. MNZ want to know that a marshal knows enough to do the job, so they run a day course with various tests to be passed. Assuming the person does pass, then they are MNZ-approved to man a flag point. I agree that an approved newbie will not be the best, but in the real world marshals have done some time on track before they do the MNZ course - so they do have real world experience plus the certificate, and will be able to do their job and teach actual newbies the ropes.

[Billy]

Someone posted that the marshall course was a two hour group session.

That isn't a lot. I know that these people are giving up there time for free, but it's for something they enjoy lets not forget, motorsport.

So someone with no actual idea, but who has talked about racing for a couple hours is now allowed to flag a point on a track. Youngatart suggests putting that squid with a complete squid and all will be hunky dori.

Doesn't sound ideal.

Actually, it is a little more than that, but you are sort of right. MNZ want to know that a marshal knows enough to do the job, so they run a day course with various tests to be passed. Assuming the person does pass, then they are MNZ-approved to man a flag point. I agree that an approved newbie will not be the best, but in the real world marshals have done some time on track before they do the MNZ course - so they do have real world experience plus the certificate, and will be able to do their job and teach actual newbies the ropes.

It's reasonably annoying to see that no matter what MNZ do,Its seen as being inadequate,

Slip back to circa 2000 when Tim Gibbes was running the Suzuki winter series and it was a regular occurence for him too ask for volunteers to be flag marshals at riders briefing otherwise there would be no racing or the Vic club event organised during 2003 I think it was where they were supposed to run the long circuit,But had to resort to the 3k circuit as the Feilding boy scouts hadn't turned up to flag marshal !!!! WTF.Sure the system isnt perfect,But consider the time and effort put in by Jim Tuckerman organising and running the officials training on top of the fact he also now does the same job Paul Pav did for around $100k and has to fit in somewhere a day job so he can eat,Of course you'd expect we could call on some of the expertise from Kiwibiker to volunteer their services to help make it even better yet,But no,Much easier to criticise from the comfort of a keyboard than roll up your sleeves and help out.

[MSTRS:Me]

...Much easier to criticise from the comfort of a keyboard than roll up your sleeves and help out.

Or fuck up ontrack and blame the flag marshal/s. Yeah - everyone's an expert, but few actually want to do it

[RDjase]

Someone posted that the marshall course was a two hour group session.

That isn't a lot. I know that these people are giving up there time for free, but it's for something they enjoy lets not forget, motorsport.

So someone with no actual idea, but who has talked about racing for a couple hours is now allowed to flag a point on a track. Youngatart suggests putting that squid with a complete squid and all will be hunky dori.

Doesn't sound ideal.

There are diferent grades of marshalls, not sure how it works excatly but the more experince/tracktime/courses you get upgraded.. Yungatart and Mstrs will know how it works

[MSTRS:Me]

Hey YT - we got at least one fooled...

[Drew]

It's reasonably annoying to see that no matter what MNZ do,Its seen as being inadequate,

Slip back to circa 2000 when Tim Gibbes was running the Suzuki winter series and it was a regular occurence for him too ask for volunteers to be flag marshals at riders briefing otherwise there would be no racing or the Vic club event organised during 2003 I think it was where they were supposed to run the long circuit,But had to resort to the 3k circuit as the Feilding boy scouts hadn't turned up to flag marshal !!!! WTF.Sure the system isnt perfect,But consider the time and effort put in by Jim Tuckerman organising and running the officials training on top of the fact he also now does the same job Paul Pav did for around $100k and has to fit in somewhere a day job so he can eat,Of course you'd expect we could call on some of the expertise from Kiwibiker to volunteer their services to help make it even better yet,But no,Much easier to criticise from the comfort of a keyboard than roll up your sleeves and help out.

Get fucked the pair of ya. You wanna slam the riders for making mistakes Billy, you gotta wear it when the shoe is on the other foot.

Things are better than they were, so be happy and keep your trap shut. That's pretty fuckin weak man, and I bet you fuckin know it.

I would be of no help even if I wanted to Billy, I'd hook some cunt, get the crap beaten out of me, and have to fuck off anyway.

Or fuck up ontrack and blame the flag marshal/s. Yeah - everyone's an expert, but few actually want to do it

I don't want to marshall. I want to race. You cunts want pats on the back for what you do? OK, here's one, if you have no passion for the sport and don't enjoy being there, fuck off or charge for your services. Simple. I'll still probably do the same number of race meetings as I do now if the costs go up, so what do I fuckin care?

[Billy]

Get fucked the pair of ya. You wanna slam the riders for making mistakes Billy, you gotta wear it when the shoe is on the other foot.

Things are better than they were, so be happy and keep your trap shut. That's pretty fuckin weak man, and I bet you fuckin know it.

I would be of no help even if I wanted to Billy,

Oh yea,How is the shoe on the other foot for me????? I dont have any input at all to officials training.

"Things are better than they were,So be happy and keep your trap shut",Where did I say that???? Pretty sure I did say it wasn't perfect though

Of course its always easier to bag somebody else's efforts than try and have a positive impact by offering a sensible solution.

I believe there has been a suggestion made at officials training that at riders briefing it is stated "If you don't feel safe,Then don't ride"