I believe in gay marriage

[ducatilover]

Last time I check stuff was happening more than 2500 years ago.........

My theory is you don't know how to bake cookies.

[Fatjim]

No, marriage pre-dates written history and christianity

Whats predating got to do with it?

The moriori predated the Maori, and we don't see the Maori falling over backwards to give NZ back, and nor should we.


The debate is about our current standards, way of life, and whether we are prepared to change the structure of our society. Not what would Jesus's Great Grandfather do.

[Fatjim]

How the hell you can want a group that doesn't like you to perform the ceremony is beyond me....

Spoken like a rational person, but unfortunately rational doesn't count. Many Churches stood/stand against Gays in leadership, soem very strongly, yet many Gays stayed and forced the issue.

I would say though that in general the like/dislike isn't around the person, rather than the theology, which is after all, what curches are about.

We can't force female Gyms to accept man. We can't wear war medals if we don't deserve to, we can't get cheap bus fares if we are middle aged and employed. We can't get free health care if we aren't children. All forms of "discrimiation" that are allowed, and quite frankly should be.

To say to a church that it can't practice what its basic tenants teach is always going to be a difficult discussion. At what point does a religious teaching cross from acceptable to unacceptable within the wider community. Some "religions" and cultures practice what we call under age sex, some practice sex and sexual orientation discrimination against leadership, What if a religion based upon polygamy starts to get mainstream attention, is that going to be the next issue we have to deal with? What is right or wrong? Pre Christianity, the practice of polygamy was common, and some existing cultures still practice it. Those of us without strong traditional NZ moral convictions will say there is nothing wrong with it, and ask what is the basis to ban it?

[BoristheBiter]

Spoken like a rational person, but unfortunately rational doesn't count. Many Churches stood/stand against Gays in leadership, soem very strongly, yet many Gays stayed and forced the issue.

I would say though that in general the like/dislike isn't around the person, rather than the theology, which is after all, what curches are about.

We can't force female Gyms to accept man. We can't wear war medals if we don't deserve to, we can't get cheap bus fares if we are middle aged and employed. We can't get free health care if we aren't children. All forms of "discrimiation" that are allowed, and quite frankly should be.

No but they forced men's clubs to except women.

[oneofsix]

Spoken like a rational person, but unfortunately rational doesn't count. Many Churches stood/stand against Gays in leadership, soem very strongly, yet many Gays stayed and forced the issue.

I would say though that in general the like/dislike isn't around the person, rather than the theology, which is after all, what curches are about.

We can't force female Gyms to accept man. We can't wear war medals if we don't deserve to, we can't get cheap bus fares if we are middle aged and employed. We can't get free health care if we aren't children. All forms of "discrimiation" that are allowed, and quite frankly should be.

To say to a church that it can't practice what its basic tenants teach is always going to be a difficult discussion. At what point does a religious teaching cross from acceptable to unacceptable within the wider community. Some "religions" and cultures practice what we call under age sex, some practice sex and sexual orientation discrimination against leadership, What if a religion based upon polygamy starts to get mainstream attention, is that going to be the next issue we have to deal with? What is right or wrong? Pre Christianity, the practice of polygamy was common, and some existing cultures still practice it. Those of us without strong traditional NZ moral convictions will say there is nothing wrong with it, and ask what is the basis to ban it?

That is too logical a post not to reply.

You say we can't force female gyms to accept males however I suspect this is more a case of the him not bothering. Either way This isn't one of the discriminations that should be allowed its just one that happens, the females sure kick up enough fuss if you set up a male only club. The others you list are good discriminations however I suspect you will find the issue with wearing medals was around fraud not discrimination.

Funnily enough we, as a country, are more likely to accept non-Christian religions discrimination against woman or races than we are the Christian churches refusing to marry gays. We already allow musilm woman to wear veils were we wont allow youths to wear hoodies. The Musilms can say what the fuck they like about the veil but once you start telling some one what they can and can't wear based on their gender then they are being discriminated against.

Oh well I go back to my statement that marriage has nothing to do with church or state. The state needs to register the joint liability arrangement, the church (term used to includes mosques etc) can bless or not according to its beliefs.

[oldrider]

No but they forced men's clubs to except women.

I think that was caused by dual pressure, the clubs needed to boost membership as well so it was convenient to capitulate.

Besides it was a good move too!

[BoristheBiter]

I think that was caused by dual pressure, the clubs needed to boost membership as well so it was convenient to capitulate.

Besides it was a good move too!

Yeah Auguster really struggles from not allowing women members. (but they have just buckled to pressure)

Can't say I had ever been to a working men's clubs and it was quite.

Like OOS said above it's more like we just don't care.

[Fatjim]

i think you are right, and why don't we care? Because we generally have the nous and drive to go do something else that we want to do, rather than make everybody else fold to our way of thinking. In the end it doesn't matter, life is too short, and there is so much fun shit out there, that if we lose the right to go have a quiet smoke and drink without women around, (much as that sounds nice and peaceful occasionally) who cares enough to fight for it?

[oneofsix]

i think you are right, and why don't we care? Because we generally have the nous and drive to go do something else that we want to do, rather than make everybody else fold to our way of thinking. In the end it doesn't matter, life is too short, and there is so much fun shit out there, that if we lose the right to go have a quiet smoke and drink without women around, (much as that sounds nice and peaceful occasionally) who cares enough to fight for it?

We haven't lost the right, just a place or two. This is why males tend to do adventurous stuff and take their booze and smokes with them.
Sad thing is as long as they worry about what the males are doing the females will always be playing catch-up. Some of the biggest things holding back females are other females, it isn't the males that say they can't ride bikes, race bikes etc rather the other woman that do the whole "you do what?!" type of thing. Yeah there are a few losers males out there that get all red necked about it but the vast majority just aren't threatened and enjoy some female company.

[superman]

We haven't lost the right, just a place or two. This is why males tend to do adventurous stuff and take their booze and smokes with them.
Sad thing is as long as they worry about what the males are doing the females will always be playing catch-up. Some of the biggest things holding back females are other females, it isn't the males that say they can't ride bikes, race bikes etc rather the other woman that do the whole "you do what?!" type of thing. Yeah there are a few losers males out there that get all red necked about it but the vast majority just aren't threatened and enjoy some female company.

It's ingrained to them from a young age, that they are totally different from males. Societal gender roles play a huge part.

[oneofsix]

It's ingrained to them from a young age, that they are totally different from males. Societal gender roles play a huge part.

I don't totally agree. Yes gender roles can be taught and in other societies this is done. In NZ it is open for every kid to chose their own course, this being tempered by their parents and groups they associate with, go to most modern religions and you will be assigned gender roles.
However having bought up kids of both genders and allowed them to make their own choices the different genders do naturally gravate towards certain norms, give a boy a Barbie doll and see how long it takes before it is either headless or flying like superman, give a girl a dump truck and she will use it to carry dolls or start prettying it up or even treat it as if it was a doll. Both will spend some time playing with the toys as designed but their gender personality will show.
As to men not caring perhaps we have had enough or perhaps it is because we care but losing fredoms for ourselves and or kids but ..

Security has been beefed up for the opening of a controversial women-only exhibition at The Dowse tomorrow.

The exhibition opens at 10am tomorrow despite complaints about the women-only polic, which resulted in mediation with the Human Rights Commission on Thursday.

Lower Hutt man Paul Young complained to the Commission over the display, threatening to test the policy by fronting up to try to get in if he was not satisfied with the outcome of mediation, which wound up yesterday.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post...ead-of-exhibit

[superman]

give a boy a Barbie doll and see how long it takes before it is either headless or flying like superman, give a girl a dump truck and she will use it to carry dolls or start prettying it up or even treat it as if it was a doll. Both will spend some time playing with the toys as designed but their gender personality will show.

Yeah that's quite true actually, used to have an ex girlfriend who'd push around her beloved toy car in a pram.

[ducatilover]

Whats predating got to do with it?

The moriori predated the Maori, and we don't see the Maori falling over backwards to give NZ back, and nor should we.


The debate is about our current standards, way of life, and whether we are prepared to change the structure of our society. Not what would Jesus's Great Grandfather do.

'Twas a simple wee fact, relevant to the quoted post.
What has Maori history got to do with fags and rings?
Interesting, many Maori claim the Moriori were never settled in the main islands on NZ, just the Chatams.
Would be a much easier debate to settle if the Maori had a written language and some form of historical recording.

[Drew]

Would be a much easier debate to settle if the Maori had a written language and some form of historical recording.

Ever played 'Chinese whispers'.

[oldrider]

Would be a much easier debate to settle if the Maori had a written language and some form of historical recording.

Not to worry, some so called Maori academics are rewriting Maori history now, even as we speak and just the way they want it!