Are the boys at BSB with their "stock" superbikes onto something?

[Kiwi Graham:Me]

Hahahaha! I wouldnt go taking it to heart Ian,Really when you think about it,What goes on,On this site is no different to what we used to do back in the 70s,Only difference was we went to the old Taita hotel 6 nights a week to do it,As your well aware everybodys an expert and MNZ will only ever be a bunch of wankers trying to make it as difficult for the competitors as we can to some folks,Its hardly a new thing and something I was well aware before taking the position,I'm quite prepared to listen to anybodys ideas,But that doesn't mean they'll be set in stone and I'm sure it would be a shock too most if they realised a majority vote in this sport is around 25%,You only have to look at the voting figures to realise that.

My plans for this class are as follows,

One class called Supersport,Stock engines,Full exhaust,Powercommander/kit ECU,Aftermarket suspenders.

Its hardly new,I'm led to believe its as it used too be,After many hours discussing this with a widerange of people from within the industry/competitors previous and present and anybody else thats actually bothered to contact me on the matter,This is what appears to be on the face of it the best scenario,Yip theres gonna be some makes that are not competitve with stock engines some years,But it will no doubt be swings and round abouts when it comes too this,Yes theres gonna be some folks that spend the extra money getting their engines blueprinted and MAY have an advantage,But thats motorsport,If you made it all stock,Those same folks will just spend the money at the track getting faster anyways,All the same as I see it,It Allows joe average to enter the class and not HAVE to be down a huge amount on horsepower or spend a bunch of money.

Of course these are only my thoughts and I know there are others on the commission and beyond who think differently and I'm sure there'll be some healthy debate on the subject,When its discussed in full.

Good on ya Billy for listening not only from those that approach you through the 'correct' channels but to the comments made far and wide including here in 'KB land'.
I encourage all types of discussion and debate, the skill lies in de-chaffing the bullshit and seeing whats left behind and digesting its merits and possabilities.

To those that are or should I say 'have found' themselves in positions in organisations within our sport its often a steep learning curve requiring a lot of patience and diplomacy.
Dont get me started on the amount of time it consumes either!

[wharfy]

I am a bit of a wuss, but I would rather spend my money on better brakes and suspension than trying to extract more horsepower out of a bike that already scares the shit out of me - ( I've got modestly powered 4 year old 675)
I reckon keep the motors BOG standard - No pipes, no aftermarket filters, no alternative fuel management systems - Spend the money on shocks, brakes and tyres.
Litre class bikes have so much horsepower in standard form that a few years ago racers could only dream about it. Most current models about +180 HP ? That's enough to give everybody all the thrills they need, racers, spectators and organizers alike !! There is only a handful of riders in NZ that can wring a superbikes neck without risking their own. (We have to import riders from overseas to rark them up a bit )

It would also help allay the fears of the people who are concerned about the safety, plus noise and emissions from modified bikes.

Disclaimer/confession - My 675 has a way cool aftermarket pipe, I occasionally go out to the shed to just polish the pipe and run the bike to hear it !!! ( full system designed by Mr Harris from down south) It came with the bike - To replace it would cost more than the lovely gold shock I had fitted !!
Ahh yeah... It also has a few aftermarket bits of sub frame etc 'cause I've crashed it a few times and they are cheaper than genuine bits (by a factor of 5 !!)

[Billy]

I am a bit of a wuss, but I would rather spend my money on better brakes and suspension than trying to extract more horsepower out of a bike that already scares the shit out of me - ( I've got modestly powered 4 year old 675)
I reckon keep the motors BOG standard - No pipes, no aftermarket filters, no alternative fuel management systems - Spend the money on shocks, brakes and tyres.
Litre class bikes have so much horsepower in standard form that a few years ago racers could only dream about it. Most current models about +180 HP ? That's enough to give everybody all the thrills they need, racers, spectators and organizers alike !! There is only a handful of riders in NZ that can wring a superbikes neck without risking their own. (We have to import riders from overseas to rark them up a bit )

It would also help allay the fears of the people who are concerned about the safety, plus noise and emissions from modified bikes.

Disclaimer/confession - My 675 has a way cool aftermarket pipe, I occasionally go out to the shed to just polish the pipe and run the bike to hear it !!! ( full system designed by Mr Harris from down south) It came with the bike - To replace it would cost more than the lovely gold shock I had fitted !!
Ahh yeah... It also has a few aftermarket bits of sub frame etc 'cause I've crashed it a few times and they are cheaper than genuine bits (by a factor of 5 !!)

Okay Kev,

This is a classic example of the comments we have to take into consideration when discussing these class structures,NO PIPE,Problem with that theory is,If you think an aftermarket pipe is expensive,Try pricing up the OEM part and lets be realistic here,Experience tells me that when racing a motorcycle,Its not IF your gonna crash it,Its more like where and how big,Chances are that when that happens your gonna damage the OEM muffler,As a number of the newer models don't have slip on mufflers then that means replacing the bulk of the system,That in itself raises another problem when looking at allowing a slip on,If the factory system doesn't have a slip on, where do we allow the competitors to cut them and fit a slip on,While at the same time if they do cut their OEM muffler off and fit an aftermarket muffler only,Have they devalued their machine when it comes time too sell it as a roadbike?A good example of this was brought home too me last night when a competitor in the Hyosung cup queried me on the slip on rule for 250 production,The Hyosung 250 doesnt have provision for a slip on as the original muffler bolts onto a flange,Therefore as the rule reads a slip on muffler is allowed but the headers must remain standard,He figured he could slip his on at the collector,Therefore bypassing the stock midpipe with a splitter in it.

Therefore on the face of it,The best solution is to allow a full system,That can be onsold when youve finished with it and the OEM system refitted in its original condition,From that you can see the sort of discussion required and the amount of thought that is required re deciding on what is the best overall result as opposed to one persons perception.

In addition,Just to stop me from further damaging my minds eye with repeated poking,When you go into the garage to "polish the pipe",You are still talking about the motorcycle ....Aye?

[The Chow]

Good on ya Billy for listening not only from those that approach you through the 'correct' channels but to the comments made far and wide including here in 'KB land'.
I encourage all types of discussion and debate, the skill lies in de-chaffing the bullshit and seeing whats left behind and digesting its merits and possabilities.

To those that are or should I say 'have found' themselves in positions in organisations within our sport its often a steep learning curve requiring a lot of patience and diplomacy.
Dont get me started on the amount of time it consumes either!

So do I , and no I'm not taking to heart anything and as I have said previously we all have opinions and that is great , be it at the pub the track or here. But I'm not going to agree with everything and certainly I will never stand back and let the hard unpaid work done by many for the sake of keeping the sport going get bagged from now on. Ideas can be discussed in a civil manner ..... oh shit there I go again forgot where I was LOL

[wharfy]

Okay Kev,

This is a classic example of the comments we have to take into consideration when discussing these class structures,NO PIPE,Problem with that theory is,If you think an aftermarket pipe is expensive,Try pricing up the OEM part and lets be realistic here,Experience tells me that when racing a motorcycle,Its not IF your gonna crash it,Its more like where and how big,Chances are that when that happens your gonna damage the OEM muffler,As a number of the newer models don't have slip on mufflers then that means replacing the bulk of the system,That in itself raises another problem when looking at allowing a slip on,If the factory system doesn't have a slip on, where do we allow the competitors to cut them and fit a slip on,While at the same time if they do cut their OEM muffler off and fit an aftermarket muffler only,Have they devalued their machine when it comes time too sell it as a roadbike?A good example of this was brought home too me last night when a competitor in the Hyosung cup queried me on the slip on rule for 250 production,The Hyosung 250 doesnt have provision for a slip on as the original muffler bolts onto a flange,Therefore as the rule reads a slip on muffler is allowed but the headers must remain standard,He figured he could slip his on at the collector,Therefore bypassing the stock midpipe with a splitter in it.

Therefore on the face of it,The best solution is to allow a full system,That can be onsold when youve finished with it and the OEM system refitted in its original condition,From that you can see the sort of discussion required and the amount of thought that is required re deciding on what is the best overall result as opposed to one persons perception.

In addition,Just to stop me from further damaging my minds eye with repeated poking,When you go into the garage to "polish the pipe",You are still talking about the motorcycle ....Aye?

Oh yeah the motorcycle

Indeed modification is a bit of a mine-field - I can see the argument for allowing cheaper aftermarket parts, I crash a lot ! - Where you draw the line is the tricky bit I guess. I've also got a carbon front guard - if I ever won a race somebody could protest me out of it - but in reality it is not a performance enhancing part and even at the very pointy end I don't think it would make much difference. Of course if I ever got to the stage where I thought I was going to win a race I would remove it - just to avoid being protested.

And of course whenever you crash you risk damaging a big ticket item. I know mufflers are vulnerable because they stick out a bit - but I guess it depends on the bike, the new Ducati has them tucked in out they way - could save you a fair bit in muffler replacement

[Robert Taylor]

Oh yeah the motorcycle

Indeed modification is a bit of a mine-field - I can see the argument for allowing cheaper aftermarket parts, I crash a lot ! - Where you draw the line is the tricky bit I guess. I've also got a carbon front guard - if I ever won a race somebody could protest me out of it - but in reality it is not a performance enhancing part and even at the very pointy end I don't think it would make much difference. Of course if I ever got to the stage where I thought I was going to win a race I would remove it - just to avoid being protested.

And of course whenever you crash you risk damaging a big ticket item. I know mufflers are vulnerable because they stick out a bit - but I guess it depends on the bike, the new Ducati has them tucked in out they way - could save you a fair bit in muffler replacement

Conversely the rear shock absorber on that Panigale looks quite vulnerable. That I dont mind!

[codgyoleracer]

Okay Kev,

This is a classic example of the comments we have to take into consideration when discussing these class structures,NO PIPE,Problem with that theory is,If you think an aftermarket pipe is expensive,Try pricing up the OEM part and lets be realistic here,Experience tells me that when racing a motorcycle,Its not IF your gonna crash it,Its more like where and how big,Chances are that when that happens your gonna damage the OEM muffler,As a number of the newer models don't have slip on mufflers then that means replacing the bulk of the system,That in itself raises another problem when looking at allowing a slip on,If the factory system doesn't have a slip on, where do we allow the competitors to cut them and fit a slip on,While at the same time if they do cut their OEM muffler off and fit an aftermarket muffler only,Have they devalued their machine when it comes time too sell it as a roadbike?A good example of this was brought home too me last night when a competitor in the Hyosung cup queried me on the slip on rule for 250 production,The Hyosung 250 doesnt have provision for a slip on as the original muffler bolts onto a flange,Therefore as the rule reads a slip on muffler is allowed but the headers must remain standard,He figured he could slip his on at the collector,Therefore bypassing the stock midpipe with a splitter in it.

Therefore on the face of it,The best solution is to allow a full system,That can be onsold when youve finished with it and the OEM system refitted in its original condition,From that you can see the sort of discussion required and the amount of thought that is required re deciding on what is the best overall result as opposed to one persons perception.

In addition,Just to stop me from further damaging my minds eye with repeated poking,When you go into the garage to "polish the pipe",You are still talking about the motorcycle ....Aye?

Whoever sets the guidlines for what remains OEM & what is allowed to be swapped out , - needs to be someone who A) Has relativley recent or current experience of the realites of racing & B) Be worldy enough to keep in mind the needs & the budget from the newcomer right up to the professional superbike team owners (no easy task)

Off the top of my head - The questions to be asking when looking at individual components are:

Is this part likely to be easily wrecked in an accident.
Are similar aftermarket parts readily available or can an owner make their own easily.
Are the aftermaket items readily available to all competitors.
If aftermarket parts available are not always made in the same materails as the original - what are the limits ?
Is the aftermarket parts likely to be or is it promoted as "a performance enhancing item" ( I:E anything that provides a weight or hp or traction gain) then the rule instagator would need to place extra thought into how that part affects the various competing brands.
Does the part only provide a solution to one specific brand that has an commonly known design fault ? I:E why allow a rear linkage rule in because of one brands issues, - but open the door to a great deal of development cost for all other brands to improve their own (which will happen)
What does the aftermarket part cost.
Is there sufficent price dissparity between OEM parts and the aftermarket item to consider.
Is the aftermarket part justified on the grounds of safety
Is the aftermarket part or rule relativly simple to complete technical checks on

And so on and so on..........


All of the above are relative or not relative to the individual classes as they stand. For instance the answers to these questions between say Prolite 250 and Superbike would be quite different.

[The Chow]

Whoever sets the guidlines for what remains OEM & what is allowed to be swapped out , - needs to be someone who A) Has relativley recent or current experience of the realites of racing & B) Be worldy enough to keep in mind the needs & the budget from the newcomer right up to the professional superbike team owners (no easy task)

Off the top of my head - The questions to be asking when looking at individual components are:

Is this part likely to be easily wrecked in an accident.
Are similar aftermarket parts readily available or can an owner make their own easily.
Are the aftermaket items readily available to all competitors.
If aftermarket parts available are not always made in the same materails as the original - what are the limits ?
Is the aftermarket parts likely to be or is it promoted as "a performance enhancing item" ( I:E anything that provides a weight or hp or traction gain) then the rule instagator would need to place extra thought into how that part affects the various competing brands.
Does the part only provide a solution to one specific brand that has an commonly known design fault ? I:E why allow a rear linkage rule in because of one brands issues, - but open the door to a great deal of development cost for all other brands to improve their own (which will happen)
What does the aftermarket part cost.
Is there sufficent price dissparity between OEM parts and the aftermarket item to consider.
Is the aftermarket part justified on the grounds of safety
Is the aftermarket part or rule relativly simple to complete technical checks on

And so on and so on..........


All of the above are relative or not relative to the individual classes as they stand. For instance the answers to these questions between say Prolite 250 and Superbike would be quite different.

Thank you for your comment we will get back to you in due course , please take a number and wait.(Just kidding). Very good points Glen.

[Billy]

Thank you for your comment we will get back to you in due course , please take a number and wait.(Just kidding). Very good points Glen.

JeeeeSUS! I dont know Ian,He don't even know what the classes are called anymore,WTF is Prolite 250 ????,Old age must be getting to him,I believe he had occassion to blow out 49 candles last week,WOW imagine being that old haha!

[Crasherfromwayback]

Conversely the rear shock absorber on that Panigale looks quite vulnerable. That I dont mind!

From what I've seen so far when you crash one...that'll be the least of your worries!

[RobGassit]

JeeeeSUS! I dont know Ian,He don't even know what the classes are called anymore,WTF is Prolite 250 ????,Old age must be getting to him,I believe he had occassion to blow out 49 candles last week,WOW imagine being that old haha!

Sounds to me like Glen just applied for a thankless task.

[slowpoke]

andful

Hey you guys are good how about giving your ideas and powers of crystal ball gazing to Billy . Wow we never thought about a phasing in period , but at the time we were being smacked around the head for not doing anything. Yes a phasing in period would of course be great , but the amount of shit that gets thrown around , you are dammed if you try and you are dammed if you don't , that is just life , get use to it.

So this didn't work , just like other times in the history of this sport , there have been plenty of areas haven't worked but saying that there has been successes lets for once look at those. And before you say "I wasn't having a go" , its ok you and me and others all able to voice our opinion , sometime will be right ways and some ways they will be wrong. The system isn't perfect , but it what we have.

Yep, it's a tricky and thankless task. But that's where my other comment regards KB comes in. For all it's warts and wankery it's a brilliant means of virtually instant communication and feedback. This is 2012 not 1982, with a soooooo many options to effectively distribute and discuss information/proposals.

As an example, who knew outside the "tight 5" that the Superstock classes were being discussed? There was obviously a submission or determination made at some point but where was the disussion and how did we as racers have any involvement? How did the Commission know what most racers were hoping for?

You guys put in so much effort, but you could remove a lot of guesswork and assumptions regarding a whole range of issues with some sort of forum or blog where issues/proposals can be discussed. Lets face it the MNZ website is filled with stuff that mostly doesn't affect road racers, updates about once a month, and it's as dry as sawdust in the Sahara....who wants to go there? But having some sort of discussion area would be a huge step in the right direction and would result in more effective and timely outcomes for all the undoubted effort that you put in. The tools are there, why not use them?

[RobGassit]

Precisely why KB is worth keeping an eye on. It's the place where you hear most things first. For instance we were thinking of big investment in a class recently, only to hear on here that it could be on the way out. Dodged a financial bullet there.

[The Chow]

andful

Yep, it's a tricky and thankless task. But that's where my other comment regards KB comes in. For all it's warts and wankery it's a brilliant means of virtually instant communication and feedback. This is 2012 not 1982, with a soooooo many options to effectively distribute and discuss information/proposals.

As an example, who knew outside the "tight 5" that the Superstock classes were being discussed? There was obviously a submission or determination made at some point but where was the disussion and how did we as racers have any involvement? How did the Commission know what most racers were hoping for?



You guys put in so much effort, but you could remove a lot of guesswork and assumptions regarding a whole range of issues with some sort of forum or blog where issues/proposals can be discussed. Lets face it the MNZ website is filled with stuff that mostly doesn't affect road racers, updates about once a month, and it's as dry as sawdust in the Sahara....who wants to go there? But having some sort of discussion area would be a huge step in the right direction and would result in more effective and timely outcomes for all the undoubted effort that you put in. The tools are there, why not use them?

How did we know ?because we were the ones at all the rounds of the nationals , winter series and Tri-series , we had riders come and keep telling us. People were given a chance to discuss it , maybe not here , but it was with riders and teams. And yet we were mis-guided and maybe made a mistake in the way things were actioned (who knows) thats yesterdays news anyway. We can communicate better at times and we are trying too but don't think everything you like will ever come in to being , the job has variables , but there is a time where someone has to make a decision on something. Mate you are so right about the MNZ website , the new one was promised for May and yet still nothing. I know they have had a few hassles with company doing the work . Lack of communication from all quarters is a problem that is for sure. As I stated previously my Job is to help Billy and Clubs co-ordinate the nationals. I'm sorry I'm not a formal spokesperson for MNZ.

Oh one final word , remember as a membership based organisation MNZ is you , you appoint the board , you have every chance to nominate people for positions when they come up. Next year it is for President and On Road Board Member (South).

[Billy]

andful

Yep, it's a tricky and thankless task. But that's where my other comment regards KB comes in. For all it's warts and wankery it's a brilliant means of virtually instant communication and feedback. This is 2012 not 1982, with a soooooo many options to effectively distribute and discuss information/proposals.

As an example, who knew outside the "tight 5" that the Superstock classes were being discussed? There was obviously a submission or determination made at some point but where was the disussion and how did we as racers have any involvement? How did the Commission know what most racers were hoping for?

You guys put in so much effort, but you could remove a lot of guesswork and assumptions regarding a whole range of issues with some sort of forum or blog where issues/proposals can be discussed. Lets face it the MNZ website is filled with stuff that mostly doesn't affect road racers, updates about once a month, and it's as dry as sawdust in the Sahara....who wants to go there? But having some sort of discussion area would be a huge step in the right direction and would result in more effective and timely outcomes for all the undoubted effort that you put in. The tools are there, why not use them?

Couple of things that need clarifying for you Spud,First of all your comment of "most racers" is a bit of an overstatement,Most racers dont visit KB or comment

Secondly,The supesrstock/Supersport and Superbike discussion you speak of has only been seriously discussed on here,We as a commission havent and won't even consider discussion on the future until the 2013 series is finalised,When we do the ideas we take into consideration will come from a much bigger circle of participants than frequent KB,Most of whom have forgotten more about running the sport than the folks on here will ever know,That said,we do read the suggestions on here and take them into consideration,That doesnt mean that because 20 people on here agree on a subject that its the right thing to do.Be prepared for a very different series for 2013 that will include a designated parc ferme where technical checks will be performed at EVERY round,Including fuel testing,Weighing of machinery and if we can get the necessary equipment cylinder volume testing for the classes we think will require it,Our technical rep is entrenched in the Kartsport NZ scene and they are both advising and helping him with preparations in this,There will also be visual checks performed on a regular basis pre race and if a machine is found to be outside the rules and can't be rectified before their next race,They will be prohibited from taking part,NO EXCEPTIONS.