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Thread: Kiwirider: Gareth Morgan's ACC position

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Deuce View Post
    I'll expand on that a bit more - People who use a motorcycle as cheap transport will achieve their goal. The vast majority of motorcycle owners who ride on the road in NZ, are reasonably affluent, or are sacrificing a lot to keep a bike on the road.

    If you're not into sportsbikes or sporting nakeds and sports tourers, then you're riding a particular brand of cruiser and spending a bit on other accessories. The core of motorcycling has moved from C90s being ridden to work to weekend toys that cost lots to buy, insure, run and accessorise.

    Scooters and motorcycles are two different things.
    It's interesting that you only identify with certain types of bikes/ riders.
    to add to your list above there are also:

    Dual purpose riders. (which can also be broken down more)
    The commuting type of rider
    Those who enjoy a sidecar attached.
    The outright Touring type rider.
    The classic bike rider(likes his bikes old)

    Quote Originally Posted by MSTRS View Post
    I've condensed your post a little...

    Scooters are designed as small, short distance commuters and this is what they are used for. They rarely, if ever, double as one's tourer (for instance).

    Pre-80s and the advent of the used jap import, all forms of 2 wheels were cheap, relatively speaking. Since then, cars have become so much cheaper, and near-enough everything involved with running a PTW has gone up exponentially. Which is where Jim and I are coming from. Motorcycling can be cheaper than 4 wheels, but it does take a very narrow choice of bike and a lot of commitment from the rider.
    Interesting comment about not touring scooters, I know of at least 2 people that have spent 2-3 weeks at a time touring the South Island going to out of the way places on larger cc scooters, and it was by choice. Don't be blinded by your own perception of what motorcycling is. It is many different things to different people. Myself for instance went from Trail rider to Road rider to touring type rider to sports bike rider to Road racing, back to touring type rider, then commuter, back to sports riding, before moving onto Dual purpose/adventure type riding over a thirty + year period.

    The point I am trying to make is that in the eyes of the powers that be, they only break the ACC component down to CC level of bike, Not what sort of rider riding what sort of bike. For instance all the mid range Dual purpose bikes like the DR650, KLR650, BMW 650 etc all get put into the over 600cc bracket for ACC levies yet hardly any of them make more than 50HP and most qualify as LAMS approved bikes..

    Yes we the enthusiasts differentiate on the type of riding we do, but ACC doesn't.
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  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howie View Post
    It's interesting that you only identify with certain types of bikes/ riders.
    to add to your list above there are also:

    Dual purpose riders. (which can also be broken down more)
    The commuting type of rider
    Those who enjoy a sidecar attached.
    The outright Touring type rider.
    The classic bike rider(likes his bikes old)



    Interesting comment about not touring scooters, I know of at least 2 people that have spent 2-3 weeks at a time touring the South Island going to out of the way places on larger cc scooters, and it was by choice. Don't be blinded by your own perception of what motorcycling is. It is many different things to different people. Myself for instance went from Trail rider to Road rider to touring type rider to sports bike rider to Road racing, back to touring type rider, then commuter, back to sports riding, before moving onto Dual purpose/adventure type riding over a thirty + year period.

    The point I am trying to make is that in the eyes of the powers that be, they only break the ACC component down to CC level of bike, Not what sort of rider riding what sort of bike. For instance all the mid range Dual purpose bikes like the DR650, KLR650, BMW 650 etc all get put into the over 600cc bracket for ACC levies yet hardly any of them make more than 50HP and most qualify as LAMS approved bikes..

    Yes we the enthusiasts differentiate on the type of riding we do, but ACC doesn't.
    and some older 1000 cc bikes are only 10hp more....I agree If i did more work on the gs myself i reckon it would be fairly cheap motoring.To be cheap though you have to get out tof the top hp bracket.I wonder if we could make a case for lams bikes to be classed as "250"s for acc purposes

  3. #48
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    It's not a case of identifying with certain riders. If you want to get into the numbers battle, then farmers make road registered riders look like a bunch of try hards because the number of quads and farm bikes sold make the rest of the market look a little ill.

    From a road rider's perspective, one who pays rego and therefore the ACC tax, the vast majority of road bikes I see on the road are, in volumetric order, Cruisers, Big Naked/Touring/Sportstourers, Sportsbikes 600cc and over, learner bikes with L plate proudly displayed, learners/commuters with no "L" plate displayed, DP bikes. The average car park in Wellington is 50% scooters, 15% cruiser/Euro naked, 15% sportstourer/naked and the remaining 20% split up between learner bikes and "proper" sportsbikes.

    I will maintain that the majority of those bikes are not cheap to purchase or maintain. Honda are starting to get it with the NC700 series, operating costs and consumables lowered with a combination of good fuel economy (and it is only "good", particularly as '60s Brit twins made the same power and probably slightly better fuel consumption.) smaller rear tyre and car-like service intervals thanks to the half a Honda Jazz engine and a red line back in sensible territory.
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  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoristheBiter View Post
    Pity that all my acc claims, i have a 12 book series, have either been work related or non earner account.

    This is what makes his ideas a complete fail.
    I too have a long list of acc claims. I'm not proud of it, and I'm FUCKING lucky we have acc. All of mine are from racing motorcycles. I'm sure I'm hardly alone. But that's why the whole rego/licence thing is so fucked up. I don't register my race bikes, and I don't need a licence either.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSTRS View Post
    And scooters have never been classed as motorbikes - so they don't count.
    Not true. My TR50's/110's were scooters AND motorcycles. I could wheelie them for miles. That make's 'em motorcycles I reckon!

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crasherfromwayback View Post
    I too have a long list of acc claims. I'm not proud of it, and I'm FUCKING lucky we have acc. All of mine are from racing motorcycles. I'm sure I'm hardly alone. But that's why the whole rego thing is so fucked up. I don't register my race bikes.
    your racing injuries do not come out of the motor vehicle account, they come out of the earner account the same as rugby and netball etcinjuries etc, you do pay an ACC levie on your wages, which is fixed to an amount the same as everyone else, a true no at fault system,

    i to have a very long list of racing induced injuries, and a heap of surgerys etc as well, but they do not effect the price of a bike rego,

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by scott411 View Post
    your racing injuries do not come out of the motor vehicle account, they come out of the earner account the same as rugby and netball etcinjuries etc, you do pay an ACC levie on your wages, which is fixed to an amount the same as everyone else, a true no at fault system,

    i to have a very long list of racing induced injuries, and a heap of surgerys etc as well, but they do not effect the price of a bike rego,
    Choice! I feel much better now!!

  8. #53
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    Generalisations

    As always - some interesting arguments in this thread.

    Motorcycles can be cheap to run - but it depends on the motorcycle and the riders objectives. My main transport is, and has always been, a motorcycle. I have a car but it only gets used when the motorcycle is an unsuitable choice.

    I run a Honda NTV650 - a shaft driven V twin with half fairing and fixed saddlebags. Tyre sizes are sensible and I am looking at $300 a set and 15,000km average life. Fuel use is 22km per litre. I'm old and my last motorcycle accident was in 1991 so my insurance costs are not high, I do all of my own servicing and expect a minimum of 200,000km from my current Honda before it needs major work that I can't do myself.

    I also run a DRZ250 Suzuki that is street legal - and this bike is even cheaper to run than the Honda as the rego and tyres are cheaper. And every second year I go trail riding in central Otago. I now live just outside Kaitaia and ride the DRZ to Queenstown and back. The bike handles this task pretty well. Sure, I'm not able to cruise at speeds in excess of the open road limit but I choose entertaining (for me!) roads to get from one end of the country to the other.

    Using a Ferrari as a commuter car will always cost more than a Suzuki Swift also used for commuting.

    Up untill 2 years ago I lived in Auckland and used exactly the same motorcycles for all of my commuting. Even larger motorcycles can be relatively cheap commuters.

    When I started riding in 1972 most motorcycles were used as transport first and recreation second. Many motorcyclists are now recreational only and the running costs reflect this.

    I have 4 road registered motorcycles - prior to the latest set of ACC rises I always had a 650 and a 250 registered. Now I manage my registrations so that I rarely have 2 bikes registered. I know how the rules work - and use the opportunities therein to my best advantage. Registering the 650 on Friday morning for 4 or 5 days only gives me time to get to and from Hastings with ease. Rego cost is less than $20. I ALWAYS have a road registered motorcycle to ride.

    Sure - riding the DRZ to Auckland for a weekend takes 30 minutes longer than doing it on the 650 but I save a reasonable amount of money in rego costs. And if you distort ACC costs the right way by saying that cheaper ACC costs mean less risk (because more risk costs more?) then I am safer cruising down SH 1 at 94kph in the pouring rain on my street legal full knobbies than I am on my LAMS 650 with good road tyres, linked braking system etc etc.

    There isn't a 100% fair system - life is full of exceptions. My one and only motorcycle related ACC claim (which was simply a dose of concussion) was in 1975. A million motorcycling kilometres later and more than 30 years involved (as an extended part time job) in motorcycle training means that I have probably paid slightly more in ACC costs than I have cost ACC.

    I don't like the corruptions and distortions that ACC has undergone over the last 30 years - but going back to the 1970's is probably not an option.

    Motorcycling can be a high risk activity - but it doesn't have to be. If I make a mistake on a motorcycle it may hurt me. If I am in the way of someone else who makes the mistake then it will hurt me. So I ride accordingly. The person with the greatest benefit to gain in keeping me uninjured is me. So I consider that it is my responsibility to keep out of the way of those who make mistakes and to only make my mistakes where the consequences of my own stupidity won't hurt.

    I accept the risks and responsibilities of riding a motorcycle. I'm totally addicted to riding and the buzz that a good ride gives me. I manage the costs of my addiction!

  9. #54
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    $11 for an 4 ltr oil pack.
    $300 for the bike.
    $250 for a set of tyres
    plus reg and wof
    Motorcycling is fucken expensive alright...................

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by p.dath View Post
    I recently bought myself a copy of the September issue of Kiwirider, and it had an article in it by Gareth Morgan (chairman of MOTONZ, the organisation that gets our $30).

    It is very apparently he does not uphold the views of the Woodhouse Commission that was the foundation of ACC, for he is personally suggested we should consider putting back in place a very similar scheme to what existed prior to ACC. Basically it would be like forgetting all the grief that people went though before the Woodhouse report investigated it, and then ACC was put in place to resolve. Things were *substantially* worse before ACC, which is why a Royal Commission of Inquiry was created to fix it.

    I should say he is only proposing these changes for Motorcyclists.

    Some things he mentions are:
    * Having an excess on claims.
    * Levying riders instead of bikes - so that we can charge riders who have accidents more, identify returning riders more easily, and basically make a risk assessment based on the rider rather than the bike
    * Giving people the right to get private insurance

    I grow so tired of the argument for the above. You only have to do a bit of research on how bad things were before ACC to realise things are currently *really* good.

    So Gareth, I realise these are your personal views, but please don't push them forward. Otherwise in 20 years we'll be looking back at how good things used to be wondering what we screwed up.

    I don't think that having an excess is a good idea but the rest seems ok to me as long as other risk activities such as extreme and high risk sports, mountain climbing, shot over jets, Motocross, rugby etc are also taxed. The rest seems like positives imo.
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  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonez View Post
    $11 for an 4 ltr oil pack.
    $300 for the bike.
    $250 for a set of tyres
    plus reg and wof
    Motorcycling is fucken expensive alright...................
    Are you using cooking oil?
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  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingcrocodile46 View Post
    Are you using cooking oil?
    Just a decerning rider that's all

    Forgot to add the 500kms I did today=priceless

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingcrocodile46 View Post
    I don't think that having an excess is a good idea but the rest seems ok to me as long as other risk activities such as extreme and high risk sports, mountain climbing, shot over jets, Motocross, rugby etc are also taxed. The rest seems like positives imo.
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  14. #59
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    Motorcycling probably seems expensive to owners of bikes only used on weekends and holidays, I'm currently running a $350 200 cc scooter ( classed as a motorcycle) and a 29 year year old $1100 BMW ( did 200 km of back roads on it today)
    I have a car but it drinks fuel so I prefer to use the bike/scootah, cheap and cheerful

    Hobbies are expensive.
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  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crasherfromwayback View Post
    Choice! I feel much better now!!
    I've never felt guilty about how much I have cost the ACC as I have always worked and always paid rego.
    Pus most of the surgery I have had has been with private insurance.

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