IWI - I want it

[Road kill]

I have considered this myself. I'm a person of the land, I was born here... I never taken much interest in genealogy, but I do know I'm at least third generation New Zealander. My Mana comes from the land here in New Zealand, I am for all intents and purposes tangata whenua.

I assume that means I can join a tribe and get on the gravy train?

If you can quote/prove your Whakapapa,you could indeed join the gravy train.

Your only real issue would be that this "Gravy train" does not exist outside of some peoples imagination.

Believe me if it did I'd be registering on the Maori electoral role,which I'm not and never will be because I support the principals of modern NZ,not the return to the old Ariki system that people like Harawera would put in place to any Maori foolish enough buy into his "barely" hidden agendas.

Something that constantly amazes me is the stupid belief of so many Kiwis that claim Maori want to "own" things like water or the latest one "the wind".

Even though it's been pointed out time after time,I'll say it again,,,Maori want a share in the commercial use of NZ's natural resourses,,,something that has constantly been denieghed them until they have forced the issue.

What's the old saying,,,you want 10%,,,so push for 20%,,,,seems it's the only real way to get your 5% huh.

See,us Murrays catch on quick aye bro.

As for the fuckwit Rankin claiming that NgaPuhi did not sign the treaty,I have three ancestors "all Ngapuhi that did sign it.

[Road kill]

Here's me thinking it was wife beating and kid killing.

So what is it for honkies cunt?

Kiddie fiddling and ripping of little old ladies for their life saving ?

Dick


Waiting for the infraction from the resident one armed pot head

[Ocean1]

Seriously bro, I'm at least as brown as Tipene O'regan...

Bro! can you sort me out some toheroa?

[98tls]

If you can quote/prove your Whakapapa,you could indeed join the gravy train.

Your only real issue would be that this "Gravy train" does not exist outside of some peoples imagination.

Believe me if it did I'd be registering on the Maori electoral role,which I'm not and never will be because I support the principals of modern NZ,not the return to the old Ariki system that people like Harawera would put in place to any Maori foolish enough buy into his "barely" hidden agendas.

Something that constantly amazes me is the stupid belief of so many Kiwis that claim Maori want to "own" things like water or the latest one "the wind".

Even though it's been pointed out time after time,I'll say it again,,,Maori want a share in the commercial use of NZ's natural resourses,,,something that has constantly been denieghed them until they have forced the issue.

Heres an idea eh...get up go do the hard yards like every other New Zealander.Couldnt give a rats about anyones skin colour until people start using it to benefit (xcuse the pun) themselves over groups of another.I couldnt give a fuck what happened to my grandfathers grandfather,water under the bridge eh and i see no reason why whatever happened to yours should be to the dettriment of New Zealand and all that currently live in it.

[Fatt Max]

As a British citizen all I want to know is when I am getting my shoota's back?

Them old tools will fetch a pretty penny and no mistake...

[Akzle]

...I couldnt give a fuck what happened to my grandfathers grandfather,water under the bridge eh and i see no reason why whatever happened to yours should be to the dettriment of New Zealand and all that currently live in it.

yeah it would be well and good if it was all left in the past... but these cunts still vote for politicians... parliament and police still exist...all in, that shit's pretty detrimental to aotearoa/NZ.

[98tls]

yeah it would be well and good if it was all left in the past... but these cunts still vote for politicians... parliament and police still exist...all in, that shit's pretty detrimental to aotearoa/NZ.

Uh huh,we could go another way and be rid of both police and politicians.Germany did with great success for a year or 2 but didnt seem to work longterm.

[mashman]

Uh huh,we could go another way and be rid of both police and politicians.Germany did with great success for a year or 2 but didnt seem to work longterm.

musta been because of the black indigenous Nazi's...

[flyingcrocodile46]

Before I get started, I would like to state that I am Maori/Pakeha, though I have nothing to do with Ngaipuhu (I'm Ngai Tahu and Ngati Kahungunu Ki Wairoa) and I had no idea about the 'wind claim' yet alone the 'water claim' until this thread popped up. Now, I personally find it a pet peeve of mine when people refer to us Maori as those 'greedy bastards' or 'bloody murrays' (even though David Rankin probably fits into both categories), because of incidents like this. No, not all Maori agree with David Rankin, including myself. So, i'll try and give an educated response to why I do disagree with David Rankin.

Firstly I did some digging around and found something interesting;

David Rankin claims in this article that Ngapuhi did not sign the treaty of Waitangi -http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0802/S00163.htm

Lets point out some facts here:

1. An Iwi (tribe) is usually made up of subtribes (hapu's) which have their own councils made up of chiefs and elders (Rangatira/Gentry Class).
2. The treaty of Waitangi is a constitution made up of the representing bodies of the British Crown and the leading Maori Chiefs of New Zealand/Aotearoa, which recognized Maori ownership of their lands and other properties, and gave the Māori the rights of British subjects. However, the understanding of the treaty of Waitangi was the following: From the British point of view, the treaty gave Britain sovereignty over New Zealand, and gave the Governor the right to govern the country. From the Maori view point, they believed they ceded to the Crown a right of governance in return for protection, without giving up their authority to manage their own affairs.
3. 35 Northern chiefs signed the treaty of Waitangi. In February 1840, the chiefs of Ngāpuhi met with the lieutenant-governor William Hobson, the official British resident James Busby, and the missionary Henry Williams, to consider signing the Treaty of Waitangi. Led by the Bay of Islands chiefs, the group initially rejected the treaty, although a minority spoke in favour of signing. Eventually Hōne Heke and Tāmati Wāka Nene, from the Hokianga, persuaded the remaining chiefs to sign, drawing on the assurances from Hobson and Williams that the treaty was intended primarily to protect Māori land and interests from the French and unscrupulous settlers. On 6 February 1840, 43 Ngāpuhi chiefs, led by Hōne Heke, signed the treaty. Over the following months a further 100 or more Ngāpuhi chiefs signed.

http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/tribal-organisation/1
http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/ngapuhi/5
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Waitangi

It could be that David Rankin's hapu did not sign the treaty of Waitangi, however the fact remains that a large majority (including the chiefs with the most mana/power) of Ngapuhi did. Which means that David Rankin's claim of Ngapuhi not signing the treaty of Waitangi is incorrect. Another fact that needs to be brought up is that David Rankin's ancestors could of sold the land in question to a neighboring hapu who did sign the treaty of Waitangi or sold it to a Pakehea. Either way, that means the land no longer belongs to David Rankin's hapu, including the wind and water that passes through it. If David Rankin and his hapu wants to claim the 'wind' that passes through the property, first he would need to repurchase the land. But his real interest isn't in preserving the land or the culture of Ngapuhi, his interest is in getting a large chunk out of the financial pie.

Another thing too, claiming that the wind is a deity does not count as a cause for granted ownership over land or anything else that goes through it (if David Rankin is going to go through that route, he will need to compete with the other polytheistic and pantheistic religions who also claim the wind as their deity).

In short, this is a very sad attempt at trying to get money into David Rankin's hapu's coffers (or more specifically, into his own pockets), and at what cost? The reputation of not just his hapu but the Maori in general who have nothing and want nothing to do with this twit?

Watch this video and you'll see what I mean:

http://www.3news.co.nz/Treaty-gives-...6/Default.aspx

That seems like a well informed opinion.

My issue with the concept of Maori wanting a share in the commercial benefits from natural elements (air/wind and water) which are created by and belong to mother nature, is simple.

They have had no hand in creating or maintaining the elements.
The wind and water isn't theirs any more than anyone else's (unless they manufacture or harvest them) and they are owed nothing by them.
From what I can see, the majority if not all of the commercial value of our water and wind comes from investment/work in which the Maori have contributed neither sweat equity or capital investment).
No offer to accept responsibility for the negative economic impacts of their assets running amok flooding homes and ripping roofs off.

However, if they have actually been disadvantaged by the actions of others in the manipulation or harvesting of the elements (i.e loss of access to their food source or commuting facilities) then fair enough. They should be compensated.

If claims were more realistic and didn't represent attempts to get something for nothing, I would be more supportive. As it stands I think you can go fuck yourselves.

Now lets talk about the damage your fucking earthquakes are causing.

[98tls]

musta been because of the black indigenous Nazi's...

Old wives tale that,truth is it failed for lack of waving,miles and miles of bahn full of non wavers,the result inevitable really.

[Nova.]

[Matariki]

That seems like a well informed opinion.

My issue with the concept of Maori wanting a share in the commercial benefits from natural elements (air/wind and water) which are created by and belong to mother nature, is simple.

They have had no hand in creating or maintaining the elements.
The wind and water isn't theirs any more than anyone else's (unless they manufacture or harvest them) and they are owed nothing by them.
From what I can see, the majority if not all of the commercial value of our water and wind comes from investment/work in which the Maori have contributed neither sweat equity or capital investment).
No offer to accept responsibility for the negative economic impacts of their assets running amok flooding homes and ripping roofs off.

However, if they have actually been disadvantaged by the actions of others in the manipulation or harvesting of the elements (i.e loss of access to their food source or commuting facilities) then fair enough. They should be compensated.

If claims were more realistic and didn't represent attempts to get something for nothing, I would be more supportive. As it stands I think you can go fuck yourselves.

Now lets talk about the damage your fucking earthquakes are causing.

For me this is an interesting situation because I was brought up seeing both sides of the fence (my father is Pakeha and my mother is Maori).

I've been searching on the net, and I found a radio interview with David Rankin discussing about the wind claim:



Here is what I gathered from David Rankin's interview;

Firstly, the wind claim is serious.



The nature of the claim is that the wind is a resource to the Ngapuhi people and Maori in general. If the crown can use it for commercial gain, Maori should be entitled to a share of the profits even if the power company involved is privatized. David Rankin appears to be pretty upset with the fact that apparently what should be our (or more technically his) money might be going to an overseas investor who actually put money into the company in the first place.

The claimants are several Hapu from the Ngapuhi Iwi including three leading Ngapuhi leaders. David Rankin is acting as the spokesperson on behalf of those Hapu and their leaders. http://business.scoop.co.nz/2012/09/...-treaty-claim/

The state of the wind claim is currently in the same position as the water claim was back in June. For anyone interested, here are David Rankin's feelings about the water claim:
Ngapuhi Leader Critical Of “Greedy” Water Claim

The hapu representatives want a pan-tribal agreement established so they can manage shares in commercial wind-generated electricity, exercise a casting vote on where wind turbines can be located.

David Rankin believes that once something becomes a commercial asset then ownership of that something needs to be brought into question, he then goes onto to state that "In reality, nobody owns the wind, nobody owns the water, but when there is a commercial value placed upon it, when it has a monetary value, that's when ownership is in question"

According to David Rankin; us ordinary Kiwis should be listening carefully to what is being said. He then goes onto to state that we are doing our predecessors an injustice by selling off state owned enterprises that they put their own money into (through tax payments mind you). Not to mention that we are doing a mistake by going against Maori claims (despite the fact David Rankin spoke out recently against the water claim) and that Maori are the ones who are putting the 'spanner in the works' and slowing down the process of privatization. He then goes onto to say "if you sell your family home and you become a renter, you have nothing." as a figure of speech for 'if you sell New Zealand's assets, then New Zealander's will have nothing they can call their own'.

David Rankin reveals that his statement "traditionally the wind was a regarded as a deity in Maori society and Maori did not consider the crown to have the right to use it without Maori consent." was just as I suspected, nothing more than a means to appeal to the heart strings of the politically correct minded who didn't know any better.

David Rankin states that in article 2 of the Treaty of Waitangi, Maori can claim any resource of commercial value. Here is article 2 of the Treaty of Waitangi;

Article the second [Article 2]
Her Majesty the Queen of England confirms and guarantees to the Chiefs and Tribes of New Zealand and to the respective families and individuals thereof the full exclusive and undisturbed possession of their Lands and Estates Forests Fisheries and other properties which they may collectively or individually possess so long as it is their wish and desire to retain the same in their possession; but the Chiefs of the United Tribes and the individual Chiefs yield to Her Majesty the exclusive right of Preemption over such lands as the proprietors thereof may be disposed to alienate at such prices as may be agreed upon between the respective Proprietors and persons appointed by Her Majesty to treat with them in that behalf.

I won't post the Te Reo Maori version of the article, instead I'll post the basic understanding of Article the second from the Maori perspective;

Second article
In the English text, Māori leaders and people, collectively and individually, were confirmed and guaranteed 'exclusive and undisturbed possession of their lands and estates, forests, fisheries and other properties'. Māori also agreed to the Crown's exclusive right to purchase their land. Some Māori (and British) later stated that they understood the Crown to have a first option rather than an exclusive right to buy.

In the Māori text, Māori were guaranteed 'te tino rangatiratanga' or the unqualified exercise of their chieftainship over their lands, villages, and all their property and treasures. Māori also agreed to give the Crown the right to buy their land if they wished to sell it. It is not certain if the Maori text clearly conveyed the implications of exclusive Crown purchase.

So in accordance to both articles, David Rankin can only 'claim' the wind if he and his Hapu owns the land that the wind goes through. There is nothing to state in either articles that Pakeha cannot use the resources on their land without Maori permission.

There are more articles on David Rankin and other stuff here: http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/

[Brian d marge]

For me this is an interesting situation because I was brought up seeing both sides of the fence (my father is Pakeha and my mother is Maori).

I've been searching on the net, and I found a radio interview with David Rankin discussing about the wind claim;



Here is what I gathered from David Rankin's interview;

Firstly, the wind claim is serious. - kind of looks David Rankin...



The nature of the claim is that the wind is a resource to the Ngapuhi people and Maori in general. If the crown can use it for commercial gain, Maori should be entitled to a share of the profits even if the power company involved is privatized. David Rankin appears to be pretty upset with the fact that apparently what should be our (or more technically his) money might be going to an overseas investor who actually put money into the company in the first place.

The claimants are several Hapu from the Ngapuhi Iwi including three leading Ngapuhi leaders. David Rankin is acting as the spokesperson on behalf of those Hapu and their leaders. http://business.scoop.co.nz/2012/09/...-treaty-claim/

The state of the wind claim is currently in the same position as the water claim was back in June. For anyone interested, here are David Rankin's feelings about the water claim:
Ngapuhi Leader Critical Of “Greedy” Water Claim

The hapu representatives want a pan-tribal agreement established so they can manage shares in commercial wind-generated electricity, exercise a casting vote on where wind turbines can be located.

David Rankin believes that once something becomes a commercial asset then ownership of that something needs to be brought into question, he then goes onto to state that "In reality, nobody owns the wind, nobody owns the water, but when there is a commercial value placed upon it, when it has a monetary value, that's when ownership is in question"

According to David Rankin; us ordinary Kiwis should be listening carefully to what is being said. He then goes onto to state that we are doing our predecessors an injustice by selling off state owned enterprises that they put their own money into (through tax payments mind you). Not to mention that we are doing a mistake by going against Maori claims (despite the fact David Rankin spoke out recently against the water claim) and that Maori are the ones who are putting the 'spanner in the works' and slowing down the process of privatization. He then goes onto to say "if you sell your family home and you become a renter, you have nothing." as a figure of speech for 'if you sell New Zealand's assets, then New Zealander's will have nothing they can call their own'.

David Rankin reveals that his statement "traditionally the wind was a regarded as a deity in Maori society and Maori did not consider the crown to have the right to use it without Maori consent." was just as I suspected, nothing more than a means to appeal to the heart strings of the politically correct minded who didn't know any better.

David Rankin states that in article 2 of the Treaty of Waitangi, Maori can claim any resource of commercial value. Here is article 2 of the Treaty of Waitangi;



I won't post the Te Reo Maori version of the article, instead I'll post the basic understanding of Article the second from the Maori perspective;



So in accordance to both articles, David Rankin can only 'claim' the wind if he and his Hapu owns the land that the wind goes through. There is nothing to state in either articles that Pakeha cannot use the resources on their land without Maori permission.

There are more articles on David Rankin and other stuff here: http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/

Did I not say that this wasn’t about Maori or any one , and all about overseas investors ( as helped by the IMF) , the sooner people wake up to the fact that the Bank(s) do not give a flying toss about you , me the envrionment , your mums saving , its all about making money ......

oh and "saving money" wont help either .....the systems not set up for that , is all about debt , and the creation of debt ....

Go Maori ... for the look of some of them , they sure have more smarts than whitey ....

Stephen

[Matariki]

I must warn you, you might lose a few IQ points listening to David Rankin in the interview I posted above. I know I just did...

[liljegren]

In 1975, the legal definition of being " maori" was changed. (please correct me if I'm wrong). From this time on, it seems to me, that those people who wished to claim themselves maori have had a pretty clear agenda; claiming power, and thereby influence, and money.
It makes no sense for modern New Zealanders to refer to their native 'whakapapa' without also referring to the rest of their blood mix. Since no 'pure maori' people exist, it follows that everyone in aotearoa is actually 'part maori' or non 'part maori'.
I am sure that if maori principles were applied to the care of our resources, we would not be considering selling anything to overseas investors. Also, if Jewish principles were applied, we would not sell anything to anyone. In fact, if we applied the common sense of any intelligent person we would not sell anything. Maori cannot claim the moral high ground on asset sales, since they are just brown New Zealanders, hoping for the same things as non brown NZers.
If we were to all pull our heads in a ted, we could all agree that we all want NZ to belong to "us".
Maori are not a separate group, they are one of the peoples who came to the Shakey Isles, along with all the others. The fact that they landed before some others gives them no special rights or priveleges.
As a parting comment, I invite anyone who thinks otherwise, to go back from whence they came.
That may well be Korea, if you are of the brown persuasion.