Commodity ownership?

[Drew]

weren't the Morioris (SP) here before the Maoris.....

My understanding here is that the Maori are here, because they had to yet the fuck out of dodge ( so to speak) after an altercation with moriori wherever they live.

[FJRider]

All the usual hysteria and them and us comments flying around again I see.

Government have proposed an action, Maori have asked a question ... what are you all most afraid of?

The question or the answer? .. ..

From "The Herald" ...

"Some of New Zealand's biggest tribes are drawing up plans to take on the Government over control of the country's water.

The Weekend Herald understands that leaders of Tainui, Ngai Tahu, Tuwharetoa and Whanganui met on Thursday to develop a strategy to combat the exclusion of Maori from control of the country's fresh water.

The hui was called and hosted in Taupo by influential Tuwharetoa paramount chief Tumu te Heuheu, a key adviser and mentor of new Maori King Tuheitia.

The iwi argue that they have property rights to the billions of dollars earned from the lakes and rivers, which are the source of much of the country's drinking water.

If the move succeeds, it could see water users depending on iwi for their supply. Commercial users, in particular, could face an iwi levy."


Sounds like more than "Just asked a question" to me ...

[Drew]

From "The Herald" ...

"Some of New Zealand's biggest tribes are drawing up plans to take on the Government over control of the country's water.

The Weekend Herald understands that leaders of Tainui, Ngai Tahu, Tuwharetoa and Whanganui met on Thursday to develop a strategy to combat the exclusion of Maori from control of the country's fresh water.

The hui was called and hosted in Taupo by influential Tuwharetoa paramount chief Tumu te Heuheu, a key adviser and mentor of new Maori King Tuheitia.

The iwi argue that they have property rights to the billions of dollars earned from the lakes and rivers, which are the source of much of the country's drinking water.

If the move succeeds, it could see water users depending on iwi for their supply. Commercial users, in particular, could face an iwi levy."


Sounds like more than "Just asked a question" to me ...

Paints a bleak picture, but I've yet to see any media in this country held accountable for misrepresenting anything, and it happens a lot.

[FJRider]

Paints a bleak picture, but I've yet to see any media in this country held accountable for misrepresenting anything, and it happens a lot.

There used to be a saying ... Where there's muck, there's brass.

Now ... Where's there's brass, there's a Treaty of Waitangi claim ...

[Drew]

There used to be a saying ... Where there's muck, there's brass.

Now ... Where's there's brass, there's a Treaty of Waitangi claim ...

Treaty claims give me the shits, I don't dispute that they need to be addressed, but they seem to pop up whenever it occurs that something might actually be lucrative.

I think that there should have been an end date set on when they have to be in, as on political party or another suggested some years ago.

[FJRider]

Treaty claims give me the shits, I don't dispute that they need to be addressed, but they seem to pop up whenever it occurs that something might actually be lucrative.

You noticed that too ...

I think that there should have been an end date set on when they have to be in, as on political party or another suggested some years ago.

I think there already is ...

http://www.treaty2u.govt.nz/the-trea...aims/index.htm

[Paul in NZ]

Are you suggesting I try and learn something? I'll hunt you down and kill ya if you are.

Um - you would probably need to read a map to do that..... I feel safer somehow now....

[oldrider]

"Empathy" is to truly understand a situation from the point of view of another party.

New Zealand (one country, one people, since 1840) is like a three legged stool, a trilogy of ... Maori .. Pakeha .. Crown I.E. Government!

Take one leg out and the stool falls over, or at best becomes unstable!

Empathy is a key ingredient in the make up of the material that the stool is made of.

Unfortunately "empathy" has been a missing ingredient since the treaty's inception and all three parties are as guilty as each other of failing to "honour the treaty"!

It's not too late to make it work but pointless emotional bickering will not make that happen and the healing process starts with each of "YOU"!

Think about what you say or write and ask yourself will this contribute positively to the outcome that we all desperately need?

Lets all move on together, as New Zealanders!

[Drew]

"Empathy" is to truly understand a situation from the point of view of another party.

New Zealand (one country, one people, since 1840) is like a three legged stool, a trilogy of ... Maori .. Pakeha .. Crown I.E. Government!

Take one leg out and the stool falls over, or at best becomes unstable!

Empathy is a key ingredient in the make up of the material that the stool is made of.

Unfortunately "empathy" has been a missing ingredient since the treaty's inception and all three parties are as guilty as each other of failing to "honour the treaty"!

It's not too late to make it work but pointless emotional bickering will not make that happen and the healing process starts with each of "YOU"!

Think about what you say or write and ask yourself will this contribute positively to the outcome that we all desperately need?

Lets all move on together, as New Zealanders!

Shut the fuck up! It's way easier to point the finger!

I think you imply the problem is bigger than I see it though. Most kiwis don't really give a shot about any of it, till it's on the news and poorly reported on with an eye firmly shut. It is the small percentage of each group, (except the governing leg, they're all stupid about shit all the time), who are creating mass hysteria and hindering the growth of us as a country.

The Maori got fucked over when whitey sold the land they were using instead of giving it back. But until whitey got here, some of what was sold was not in any way workable for the Maori. Rivers and lakes are a perfect example! The Maori fished, washed, and swam in them, but they did not use it's potential in any way shape or form. How can they now have the rights to a potential they were centuries away from developing. A race, let's not forget, that had not yet invented the wheel!

The land under the lakes, created when dams went up, probably a claim to be made there, IF there is proof said land was worked.

I have presented this from the white fella perspective, I'll now have a crack at the flip side.

Whitey came here and shafted the Maori by selling their land. They need to give it back, or pay for it... Umm, little help? I cannot seem to find a logical argument for getting water rights.

[Banditbandit]

Shut the fuck up! It's way easier to point the finger!

I think you imply the problem is bigger than I see it though. Most kiwis don't really give a shot about any of it, till it's on the news and poorly reported on with an eye firmly shut. It is the small percentage of each group, (except the governing leg, they're all stupid about shit all the time), who are creating mass hysteria and hindering the growth of us as a country.

The Maori got fucked over when whitey sold the land they were using instead of giving it back. But until whitey got here, some of what was sold was not in any way workable for the Maori. Rivers and lakes are a perfect example! The Maori fished, washed, and swam in them, but they did not use it's potential in any way shape or form. How can they now have the rights to a potential they were centuries away from developing. A race, let's not forget, that had not yet invented the wheel!


The land under the lakes, created when dams went up, probably a claim to be made there, IF there is proof said land was worked.

I have presented this from the white fella perspective, I'll now have a crack at the flip side.

Whitey came here and shafted the Maori by selling their land. They need to give it back, or pay for it... Umm, little help? I cannot seem to find a logical argument for getting water rights.

Hey .. not bad ... a little short on the attempt from "the flip side". However, many of us have no dispute over genuinely sold land - but much of the land was unfairly confiscated, outright stolen, or taken for "public works" with the promise of its return when ti was no longer needed - but then never returned - e.g. the Raglan Golf Course. And then there was the land that was taken through fraud and trickiness.

However ... "The Maori fished, washed, and swam in them, but they did not use it's potential in any way shape or form. How can they now have the rights to a potential they were centuries away from developing. A race, let's not forget, that had not yet invented the wheel!"

"Using land to it's potential" is a Euro-centric idea not shared by any indigenous people around the world - land just is - it does not have "potential" in any indigenous terms ... That's where there has been a fundamental dispute between Euro-centic groups and indigenous peope all around the world ... ever since the masive expansion from Europe from the 17th centuury onwards ...

[MisterD]

Umm, little help? I cannot seem to find a logical argument for getting water rights.

There isn't one. Bob Jones wrote an excellent column a few weeks ago, pointing out that in normal contract disputes, one goes back to look at both parties' intent when they signed.

It's blindingly obvious that the intent of the "full possession blah blah" clause was to protect the economic base of the tribes, so if their fishing or canoe-transport was suddenly going to be affected by the building of a new dam then they absolutely have a claim.

Maori need to go to court and show that they meet the criteria for customary title (ie common law ownership), and the last Labour govt should have had the balls to let them do that over the F&S. This whole Waitangi Tribunal exercise in foot-stamping tantrums is because they know damn-well that they don't pass that customary title test. Diddums.

[Banditbandit]

There isn't one. Bob Jones wrote an excellent column a few weeks ago, pointing out that in normal contract disputes, one goes back to look at both parties' intent when they signed.

It's blindingly obvious that the intent of the "full possession blah blah" clause was to protect the economic base of the tribes, so if their fishing or canoe-transport was suddenly going to be affected by the building of a new dam then they absolutely have a claim.

Maori need to go to court and show that they meet the criteria for customary title (ie common law ownership), and the last Labour govt should have had the balls to let them do that over the F&S. This whole Waitangi Tribunal exercise in foot-stamping tantrums is because they know damn-well that they don't pass that customary title test. Diddums.

I suspect that customary use of water is much mch easier to prove than customary use of the foreshore and seabed. After all, we all drink water and we have been doing it since "whitey" arrived ... no need to prove continued customary use - it's obvious ...

[MisterD]

I suspect that customary use of water is much mch easier to prove than customary use of the foreshore and seabed. After all, we all drink water and we have been doing it since "whitey" arrived ... no need to prove continued customary use - it's obvious ...

Customary use commuting in yer waka? Customary use trapping eels? Or just customary use, getting it out of a white-man's tap?

I wonder, did local Iwi ever standover the builder of this establishment, demanding a cut of profits:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...awana_Mill.jpg

[bogan]

"Using land to it's potential" is a Euro-centric idea not shared by any indigenous people around the world - land just is - it does not have "potential" in any indigenous terms ... That's where there has been a fundamental dispute between Euro-centic groups and indigenous peope all around the world ... ever since the masive expansion from Europe from the 17th centuury onwards ...

So if the hydrodams were put under iwi control, would they tear them down to spit in the face of the euro-centric ideals, or would they keep em to sell the electricity generated?

[Banditbandit]

Customary use commuting in yer waka? Customary use trapping eels? Or just customary use, getting it out of a white-man's tap?

I wonder, did local Iwi ever standover the builder of this establishment, demanding a cut of profits:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...awana_Mill.jpg

I have not taken water out of a white man's tap for man y many years - always taken water off my own land.

Definitely customary use for eeling - very easy to prove ... look at any creek or river on the weekend to watch the tamariki eeling ..

Customary use of waka - also easy to prove (ever been at Ngaruawahia for the river racing?) And my relations stil use their waka up and down the Whanganui River ...

The Kawana Mill? On my whanau land ... built by Govenor Grey to process Māori-grown wheat into flour ... we used water power to grind our flour and sell it to you lot!

http://attractions.nzherald.co.nz/ve...ll-new-zealand