Chain replacement: when & why exactly?

[sootie]

I scrub with kero then wash it of with a finger over the end of the hose and re lube, seams to work ok for me

That was pretty much how I started with this idea, and I agree that it does work.

When we got a high pressure sprayer for general cleaning, it occurred to me that this would really move the grime & grease. It certainly did.
Just slowly turn the rear wheel & aim at the chain as it goes past. Repeat 2 or 3 three times at different angles & you are done in maybe 10 minutes. Straight away I had cleaner chains than I had ever seen before. The WOF testers never look a second look, they think the chain is almost new!

What I have been less sure of, was the effects of the water. It all looked OK, and after nearly 10 years of doing this, I am a believer. A pair of gumboots survive a direct close up hit with the high pressure sprayer, so why would an O-ring have any problem? The dirt gets blown off it so fast it is hard to believe it could get inside to the bearing surface, and I don't believe this.

[bogan]

I will go with a bit of both of those and say that I believe I have proved that it is a better & easier way.
I will add the proviso (not proven) that the chain needs to be relubed thoroughly, and then used within a day or so afterwards to make sure that any unwanted water is disposed of. (Maybe a bit does get past the O-rings.)

I have read that the main reason cam chains last far longer than drive chains on bikes is because they operate in a cleaner environment, not because of any loading difference. If you can keep a chain clean by any means, it must last longer & grit is far worse than water. (Again this is my belief, but I can not prove it.)

Tis a bit of a stretch to say you have proved it; you probably want to prove it because it is an easier way, but first you'd need to normalise for the other factors. Unless you had the same bike with same chain brands and chain tensions and environments used in, and same chain lube and same lube frequency before you moved to this technique with no loss of chain life, I'm skeptical that waterblasting is the best solution.

I agree, but o-ring chain is a different story. It comes lubed, and that lube should last the lifetime as the o-rings should keep it in there, while keeping the crud out. The purpose behind keeping it lubed and clean, is to ensure the o-rings don't deteriorate and allow things past, not to provide lubrication for the pins. I just think the increased pressure blasting the crud around to achieve the same level of clean as with kero, will do more damage. But I'm open to opposing theories if you have any?

[sootie]

Tis a bit of a stretch to say you have proved it; you probably want to prove it because it is an easier way, but first you'd need to normalise for the other factors. Unless you had the same bike with same chain brands and chain tensions and environments used in, and same chain lube and same lube frequency before you moved to this technique with no loss of chain life, I'm skeptical that waterblasting is the best solution.

I agree, but o-ring chain is a different story. It comes lubed, and that lube should last the lifetime as the o-rings should keep it in there, while keeping the crud out. The purpose behind keeping it lubed and clean, is to ensure the o-rings don't deteriorate and allow things past, not to provide lubrication for the pins. I just think the increased pressure blasting the crud around to achieve the same level of clean as with kero, will do more damage. But I'm open to opposing theories if you have any?

OK, "I have proved it is a bit strong". I think I have made it pretty obvious that no extreme & immediate damage is likely to be suffered.
Approaching it another way; have you tried to damage an O-ring with a water blaster? With the jet at 25mm plus, I don't think a common household cheapie blaster could do any damage. That is how I use it.
It certainly is an easier way. I use it at least twice a year, and sometimes again after a long stretch of off the seal use, but this is a matter of rider choice I guess.

[AllanB]

I scrub with kero then wash it of with a finger over the end of the hose and re lube, seams to work ok for me

Fuck that sounds painful!!!!!

[bogan]

OK, "I have proved it is a bit strong". I think I have made it pretty obvious that no extreme & immediate damage is likely to be suffered.
Approaching it another way; have you tried to damage an O-ring with a water blaster? With the jet at 25mm plus, I don't think a common household cheapie blaster could do any damage. That is how I use it.
It certainly is an easier way. I use it at least twice a year, and sometimes again after a long stretch of off the seal use, but this is a matter of rider choice I guess.

I'd be surprised if that sort of use didn't force water and crud into the pin rolling surfaces. And no I wouldn't try it because even once it is forced in there, it will still take a while to do damage.

Put it this way, a cam chain is in ideal conditions and lasts the lifetime of the bike, why are you happy with only 50 thousand k out of your drive chain?

[Fast Eddie]

The front sprocket always wears faster than the rear due to the smaller size (more wear).

hmm interesting, I noticed the opposite.. i got a couple of fronts that are useable from replacing sets. but the rears are never useable.

I change when chain gets tight spots/cannot be adjusted anymore via swingarm. or sprockets start losing teeth

[Akzle]

Love to hear some experts discuss this...

...then. why are you posting on kb???

[sootie]

I'd be surprised if that sort of use didn't force water and crud into the pin rolling surfaces. And no I wouldn't try it because even once it is forced in there, it will still take a while to do damage.

Put it this way, a cam chain is in ideal conditions and lasts the lifetime of the bike, why are you happy with only 50 thousand k out of your drive chain?

I actually said at least 50,000kms. I have only ridden the bike for the last 30,000, and I don't think I have seen much chain deterioration. Prior to that the bike had been given little servicing, but I find it hard to believe the chain was any younger than 20,000 when I bought the bike. The chain was pretty dirty at that time & had not been recently fitted. My previous bikes I did not have very long, but one, a KZ400 had 22,000 on it when I bought it (original chain). It was sold at 55,000kms. Chain & sprockets were still OK but not pristine. Again, water blast cleaning was used on it for years.

How long do your roadbike chains last? Whatever you do, they do get dirt on them & have to run like that for thousands of Kms. I just try to keep them cleaner by using an easy clean method & fresh lube a few times each year. I think my chains last well.

Why do you think that a jet of water sweeping across the O-ring must force water + grit past its sealing edges?
I think it would blast 99%of the dirt far away. Why would this be worse than the bristles of a brush? It certainly leaves it cleaner afterwards.

I did say that I believed a cam chain lasted well mainly because it operated in a clean environment. No open drive chain can match that!

[Fast Eddie]

Put it this way, a cam chain is in ideal conditions and lasts the lifetime of the bike, why are you happy with only 50 thousand k out of your drive chain?

hehe, honda wasn't so keen on giving us lifetime cam chains. mine only lasted 50,000km.. and I think baffa may have run into problems with his? I don't know any other old blade owners

[sootie]

...then. why are you posting on kb???

I have great faith in you brother!

[Fast Eddie]

I clean the chain with simple green and wax chain pretty much after each bike wash, or after riding through some rainy days. every 1,000 or so kms it gets a lubing and cleaning... its not hard.

I wouldn't water blast anything on the bike. simple green and a bucket and a sponge.. no forcing water into bits to rust them out or corrode.

dry it off after too

[bogan]

I actually said at least 50,000kms. I have only ridden the bike for the last 30,000, and I don't think I have seen much chain deterioration. Prior to that the bike had been given little servicing, but I find it hard to believe the chain was any younger than 20,000 when I bought the bike. The chain was pretty dirty at that time & had not been recently fitted. My previous bikes I did not have very long, but one, a KZ400 had 22,000 on it when I bought it (original chain). It was sold at 55,000kms. Chain & sprockets were still OK but not pristine. Again, water blast cleaning was used on it for years.

How long do your roadbike chains last? Whatever you do, they do get dirt on them & have to run like that for thousands of Kms. I just try to keep them cleaner by using an easy clean method & fresh lube a few times each year. I think my chains last well.

Why do you think that a jet of water sweeping across the O-ring must force water + grit past its sealing edges?
I think it would blast 99%of the dirt far away. Why would this be worse than the bristles of a brush? It certainly leaves it cleaner afterwards.

I did say that I believed a cam chain lasted well mainly because it operated in a clean environment. No open drive chain can match that!

Like you, I've never replaced a chain more than once, so I can't comment on the lifetimes.

A brush has relatively wide bristles which can transmit a lot less force than the much narrower and more powerful waterblaster. Its like pushing a knife down between the o-ring and chain instead of a pencil. I'm surprised you get it cleaner with water, I've found the opposite, maybe its in the technique....
You know how a waterjet cutter works right? high pressure water with grit added will cut through steel; so not inconceivable that much lower pressure water shoving grit around will damage rubber.

[sootie]

Like you, I've never replaced a chain more than once, so I can't comment on the lifetimes.

A brush has relatively wide bristles which can transmit a lot less force than the much narrower and more powerful waterblaster. Its like pushing a knife down between the o-ring and chain instead of a pencil. I'm surprised you get it cleaner with water, I've found the opposite, maybe its in the technique....
You know how a waterjet cutter works right? high pressure water with grit added will cut through steel; so not inconceivable that much lower pressure water shoving grit around will damage rubber.

I can only suggest you try it. At around 25mm I dont think it will damage an O-ring, and there is not much grit (as a cutting tool would have). As I say, my gumboot stops it OK without damage. I just can't see why bits of dirt should find it easier to go through an O-ring edges than to simply follow the bulk of the water out in to the environment.

[Gremlin]

why are you happy with only 50 thousand k out of your drive chain?

When I had a ZX10R, it spat the OEM set out in 17k... 50k? I'd have been stoked!

hmm interesting, I noticed the opposite.. i got a couple of fronts that are useable from replacing sets. but the rears are never useable.

Very unusual. The front, being smaller, has to work 2-3 times as much as the rear, therefore, it gets worn 2-3x as fast...

[sinned]

To clean the chain I just wind up the Scottoiler and go for a ride. There is a bit of oil splash over the chain guard, wheel and wof label; otherwise all if fine and the chain is nicely oiled and any dirt whisked away. Chain and sprocket seem fine at 34,00kms.