Govt assault on young 'uns continues

[Brett]

Whats your point mashman, either way round, he would have gained 2 years experience at the job... In fact Brett re iterates my point.. at 16 I was paid 12 quid a week about half of what my school mates got working in 'low skill' type employment, by 21 (5 yrs later) I was earning DOUBLE what they could at adult wage rates..... But I can assure you, your average txt speaking, attitude ridden, (i aint gunna make the tea, clean out that machine, sweep the floor) fuckwit wouldnt even get into the trade (engineering) cuz they kuldnt komprehnd unglish langwadge an do maf's. Trust me when you are working out relief angles for form tooling, reading a blueprint with tolerances of 2/10 of a thousandth of an inch (average piece of paper is 6 thou, thick to give you an idea how minuscule that is) on ground surfaces. Or, reading a complex plan or formulae/calculation requirement. Ya kunt txt yur mate or ask the 4man if yu can use yur laptop.

I have a shit load of respect for tooling engineers. Very cool job, making some awesome shit. My first job was also strongly technical, although more management related...however I remember in the first 6 months spending a lot of time doing low brow work proving myself.

On that note...as a 13 year old, my very first job was hot water blasting rubbish trucks on a Saturday morning! Which then progressed onto sweeping the floors of a panel beaters shop before moving on to learning some basic panel beating skills (great for a 16 year old into cars in a big way!) These jobs taught me skills, largely attitude related, that helped me immensely in my first full time employment and also when I moved into the more professional worlds of project management and business consulting.

[Brian d marge]

Haha...sounding pretty communist there mate!

I do actually have a copy of the little red book, and in the first chapter it does make a bit of sense ...then it kinda rants and raves ...
unfortunately all political ideas have some good points and bad , ours is just as bad as comunjizim, ( ours uses game theory to quantify , which leads to a equilibrium without ideals)
and as for school dinners.....when I was young school dinners were a crime against humanity....I remember custard that had qualities unknown to science....:::

Stephen......

[mashman]

No, because with that age differentiation came a) an education earned while working full time (studied full time as well) and b) the maturity that *usually* only come with both age and life experiences. Leaving school at 14, I would have been both mentally and educationally unprepared. For example, as a teenager I struggled with finishing the things that I started, ,this changed in my later years as I started to develop a very strong drive to be successful in everything that I did.

A) you would have received that same education, just at an earlier age.
B) what does maturity have to do with the ability to do a job?

You may well have been mentally and educationally prepared, but I would venture that given that you only needed to learn that which helped you do your job, that you would have caught up pretty damned quickly. Perhaps as a teenager you hadn't decided what you wanted to do, therefore you didn't finish what seemed like a good idea to start? As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, if I knew then what I know now, my age would not be a barrier to me achieving that I wanted to do. Plenty of teens finish what they WANT to. Plenty of teens don't finish what they wanted to when they find something better that they'd prefer to do. There are plenty of adults out there that that applies to too and they've had all of the experience necessary, according to you, to be able to do anything. Age isn't the barrier that you guys make it out to be, in fact the attitude that you can't because you're young is likely much more damaging. It's a shame that some people can't see this. Kids are capable of much more than you can possibly imagine. Yes, in general: they have an attitude problem at times, they have minimal life experience, they have a lower level of education, they don't know what they want to do and likely many many many more yes's... BUT, that does not mean that they're incapable of undertaking tasks that an older "apprentice" can in a very similar amount of time. So I disagree with you about as strongly as I can in regards to their talent and ability and it fucks me right off that people believe that they are financially worth less than the minimum wage because of poor reasoning and stupid preconceptions in regards to ability.

[Akzle]

Damn you are good, Legal expert capable of argueing in court over points of law, Economist, Business guru AND now you're an expert in toolmaking......
BTW no it wasnt a surface grinder for form tooling...... a Wickman Schrivener OPG. and 2/10's on a Jones Shipman surface grinder is possible, as long as the bed was kept ground in regular and you used a toolmakers 'magnetic block' for small items. but not easy as shit!!!! But then obviously I couldnt have been as skilled as you.....

no expert, but a few years of engineering up my arse... err, sleeve.
but right you are sir, damn, i AM good.

[Brett]

I do actually have a copy of the little red book, and in the first chapter it does make a bit of sense ...then it kinda rants and raves ...
unfortunately all political ideas have some good points and bad , ours is just as bad as comunjizim, ( ours uses game theory to quantify , which leads to a equilibrium without ideals)
and as for school dinners.....when I was young school dinners were a crime against humanity....I remember custard that had qualities unknown to science....:::

Stephen......

I hear you Stephen. Gotta love economic game theory....lovely in the theoretical world.

[Brett]

A) you would have received that same education, just at an earlier age.
B) what does maturity have to do with the ability to do a job?

You may well have been mentally and educationally prepared, but I would venture that given that you only needed to learn that which helped you do your job, that you would have caught up pretty damned quickly. Perhaps as a teenager you hadn't decided what you wanted to do, therefore you didn't finish what seemed like a good idea to start? As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, if I knew then what I know now, my age would not be a barrier to me achieving that I wanted to do. Plenty of teens finish what they WANT to. Plenty of teens don't finish what they wanted to when they find something better that they'd prefer to do. There are plenty of adults out there that that applies to too and they've had all of the experience necessary, according to you, to be able to do anything. Age isn't the barrier that you guys make it out to be, in fact the attitude that you can't because you're young is likely much more damaging. It's a shame that some people can't see this. Kids are capable of much more than you can possibly imagine. Yes, in general: they have an attitude problem at times, they have minimal life experience, they have a lower level of education, they don't know what they want to do and likely many many many more yes's... BUT, that does not mean that they're incapable of undertaking tasks that an older "apprentice" can in a very similar amount of time. So I disagree with you about as strongly as I can in regards to their talent and ability and it fucks me right off that people believe that they are financially worth less than the minimum wage because of poor reasoning and stupid preconceptions in regards to ability.

A)Then to apply your logic, a 10 year old is capable of doing the work of an adult?? There's a reason that we don't teach primary schools...for example, theoretical physics...the brain needs to be trained to learn, and to develop then necessary pathways.

B) Everything. Attitude to work has EVERYTHING to do with ones ability to work. Age isn't usually the problem, it's the attitude that the age group seems to have. This isn't intended to be a blanket statement, there are of course exceptions (and probably a lot of them!). My two best mates are cases in point, they left school at age 15, went into apprenticeships and picked it up straight away, progressing on to become successful trademan. However, to begin with ...they cost their employers money while they were trained up (ability to produce/deliver a service). Within a reasonably short time frame this situation was reversed as they learned skills, and thus got paid more.
I don't necessarily believe that young people are worth less than minimum wage, but at least it (in theory) should promote more employers to take on young people. As someone who has employed a reasonable number of people, including school leavers, over the past few years I can say completely honestly that when I find someone good, with a good work ethic and skills to match, I will happily pay them well for their services.

[ducatilover]

I don't see the big hulla-balloo, really.

What fucks me off is retarded politician wankers telling us every stupid decision they make will create jobs

Why is unemployment high?
The only thing that has created jobs recently is the ChCh quakes, and they also destroyed many jobs.



I need beer
I'm unbeerable like this
Beerly functioning

[FJRider]

The only thing that has created jobs recently is the ChCh quakes, and they also destroyed many jobs.

But it didn't create the jobs everybody that is unemployed ... WANT ...

Like ...

1. minimum $20 per hour.
2. minimum hours actually working per week. (0)
3. maximum hours paid per week. (80 ... flexable here, can be paid for more)
4. job MUST come with a (4WD) vehicle. (and fuel card)
5. must be in charge of at least five other people that actually do the work.
6. automatic pay-rise after the first week. (can be sooner)

[ducatilover]

But it didn't create the jobs everybody that is unemployed ... WANT ...

Like ...

1. minimum $20 per hour.
2. minimum hours actually working per week. (0)
3. maximum hours paid per week. (80 ... flexable here, can be paid for more)
4. job MUST come with a (4WD) vehicle. (and fuel card)
5. must be in charge of at least five other people that actually do the work.
6. automatic pay-rise after the first week. (can be sooner)

If it's funded, I'll happily go down there and do 40+ a week on minimum wage and I'm not "well".

You're certainly right though, some of the "shit" but available jobs (pack houses, meat works etc) that are min. wage are too much for most people

I went to work at a kiwi fruit pack house recently and ended up collapsing (sciatica, blah-blah, got fired, too dangerous etc) I was one of very few NZ citzens working there.
Kind of a worry about where our society stands (or in my case collapses after lots of lifting)

[blue rider]

But it didn't create the jobs everybody that is unemployed ... WANT ...

Like ...

1. minimum $20 per hour.
2. minimum hours actually working per week. (0)
3. maximum hours paid per week. (80 ... flexable here, can be paid for more)
4. job MUST come with a (4WD) vehicle. (and fuel card)
5. must be in charge of at least five other people that actually do the work.
6. automatic pay-rise after the first week. (can be sooner)

i guess a lot would be happy to just find a job, at a couple of dollars above minimum wage as tenting is not really an option and rent alone in most places of NZ will eat up a weekly income if paid minimum wage only.

I guess a lot would be happy to have the overhours paid, that they are not getting paid because their on weekly salaries and any overtime is dontated to the well being of the company....this applies to quite a bit of back office staff, but I would assume that it just applies to jobs in general. Or the overhours one might work, to keep a job.

I guess a lot would be happy to be paid for the jobs they are doing, inclusive any responsability for staff, even if it is not part of their job, and because it is not part of their job description they are not getting it paid.

i guess a lot would be happy to just receive a pay - rise that keeps up with the increases everyday Joe and Jane Ordinary has been experiencing lately.


what I am saying is that after several years in which the only employemnt headlines are the ones about jobs lost, we might want to just give credit to the New Zealander of all shades and ages, and just for once ask where the jobs are .....especially those that actually pays a living wage.

But maybe its just cheaper to accuse others that one does not know of lazyness, unreadyness, unwillingness etc, than really just admitting that the jobs that are needed to keep the economy going, and the jobs that are needed to provide peoply with a living wage are not created.

And it is surely cheaper for businesses that pay minimum wage only, to have their staffs wages supplemented by the various benefits said staff will apply for, i.e. housing benefint, food aid, etc, than to actually pay them a living wage.

[FJRider]

i guess a lot would be happy to just find a job.

On the TradeMe Jobs for Christchurch alone ... 2166 jobs (all categorys) listed as available now.

On the first page alone ... unskilled workers wanted with a starting rate of $17 an hour.



Maybe ... I guess ... a lot don't want to work.

[Brian d marge]

On the TradeMe Jobs for Christchurch alone ... 2166 jobs (all categorys) listed as available now.

On the first page alone ... unskilled workers wanted with a starting rate of $17 an hour.



Maybe ... I guess ... a lot don't want to work.

the key word there is Christchurch

I live in Auckland

Stephen

[mashman]

A)Then to apply your logic, a 10 year old is capable of doing the work of an adult?? There's a reason that we don't teach primary schools...for example, theoretical physics...the brain needs to be trained to learn, and to develop then necessary pathways.

B) Everything. Attitude to work has EVERYTHING to do with ones ability to work. Age isn't usually the problem, it's the attitude that the age group seems to have. This isn't intended to be a blanket statement, there are of course exceptions (and probably a lot of them!). My two best mates are cases in point, they left school at age 15, went into apprenticeships and picked it up straight away, progressing on to become successful trademan. However, to begin with ...they cost their employers money while they were trained up (ability to produce/deliver a service). Within a reasonably short time frame this situation was reversed as they learned skills, and thus got paid more.
I don't necessarily believe that young people are worth less than minimum wage, but at least it (in theory) should promote more employers to take on young people. As someone who has employed a reasonable number of people, including school leavers, over the past few years I can say completely honestly that when I find someone good, with a good work ethic and skills to match, I will happily pay them well for their services.

1) They once did (likely still do in some country's around the world). The reason we don't teach the "heavy shit" at primary school is because they have to gain a broad cross section of knowledge according to the curriculum and educational policy set. I have no doubt that if you start teaching physics to kids that they'll pick it up quickly enough if it is their sole subject of study or if they're really interested in it. At the end of the day we'll learn about any given subject to the point where we don't want to learn any more. Whilst I agree that the learning curve for kids is probably much steeper based on an older person having gone through the education system, that's still no guarantee that the speed at which the pair of them learn a given subject will be that different.

potato) Attitude isn't everything at all. Being able to do the job is. In some cases that may require a certain attitude, but one doesn't necessarily need to follow the other. In other words I can still do my job irrespective of my attitude towards it because I have the skills to do it, but I'm still the same useless arsehole. The unfortunate thing is that as these young folk take up available jobs there are slightly older folk that are being priced out of the market and if that's the case then it's profit over experience/knowledge/perceived ability and not necessarily hiring the right person for the job. I have no doubt that there are some fantastic employers out there that will "pay" on ability and for no other reason... and if every employer used that as the yard stick for how they pay their staff, then we wouldn't need this legislation.

[FJRider]

the key word there is Christchurch

I live in Auckland

Stephen

My point is ...

Why is there an uproar about the number of people from overseas brought in to do the work in Christchurch ... and taking the jobs that Christchurch people can do. And a large number of jobs still available ... together with a large number of unemployed ... ???

Along with the youth bitching ... they cant live on $10 an hour. There's plenty of work that's paying well above that ...

Only 4327 jobs available in the Auckland area. On the first page ... a person wanted to waterblast houses, vehicle supplied (with fuel card) and work supplied. Sound like you ... ???

[Nova.]

meh.
not worried I'm 17, already have a full time job.