Teachers and the MinEd

[Brian d marge]

So is being a mechanic.






Just saying like.

Agreed ,

stephen

[oldrider]

What on earth does that mean? Every secondary teacher has to yearly meet MOE set professional standards and have to meet the criteria of their own professional body in order to remain registered. Appearance money! That is bullshit from someone unaware of the stresses involved in being in front of a class today. Anybody not performing is quickly found out from above and below and the job is too stressful to just turn up and not perform. Anyway back to your vague "criteria" for performance pay-what were they again? Go on, try and spell out some specifics!

You just don't get it do you or is it that there are none so blind as those who will not see!

If you are happy with the current situation you are probably part of the problem, rather than the solution.

Try telling a fly on the window to try harder and work longer hours at escaping through the glass window!

It will just die there still trying, unless he takes another direction!

Teachers (IMHO) are just like the flies on the window!

I actually value and respect quality teachers and sympathise with the plight they face in their current employment conditions ... think about that!

[oldrider]

So - performance pay ? - a very difficult subject ...

True, I didn't claim it would be easy but IMHO it should be worth it. Good luck whatever!

[duckonin]

With the way kids/teens behave these days I don't blame teachers for wanting more money. They suffer almost endless abuse from unruly students and there is very little, if anything, that they can do about it. The government is so fucking PC that they allow these hooligans to run rampant and spoil the right for every other student to get a good education.

No person held a gun at their head. Teaching was their own choice, talke the good with the shit and there is plenty of that. As for the rest of your post, education starts at home with the parents and grand- parents ect.

[duckonin]

Have you been a teacher? It's bloody hard work. Despite the pay figures teachers leave the profession in droves, often through burn out within the first 5 years.

Ha ha what a load of crap. Shot yourself in the foot with a load of cods wallop. Heaps of professions pay 'way less' and the 'work' is hard.

[SVboy]

You just don't get it do you or is it that there are none so blind as those who will not see!

If you are happy with the current situation you are probably part of the problem, rather than the solution.

Try telling a fly on the window to try harder and work longer hours at escaping through the glass window!

It will just die there still trying, unless he takes another direction!

Teachers (IMHO) are just like the flies on the window!

I actually value and respect quality teachers and sympathise with the plight they face in their current employment conditions ... think about that!

Avoiding putting any substance to your ravings as usual. Nothing to see here, as usual. And your image of teachers as flies is as demeaning as it is inaccurate[as usual].

[PrincessBandit]

Ha ha what a load of crap. Shot yourself in the foot with a load of cods wallop. Heaps of professions pay 'way less' and the 'work' is hard.

Not sure how you come up with that reply. It has no bearing whatsoever on what I said.

[jasonu]

The secret to managing large class sizes was that pupils were streamed so that all the pupils in a class were learning at around the same rate. there were no slower pupils holding back the brighter ones as all the below average students were in the same stream as were all the brighter students in the same stream.

.

You mean to say this is not the case in todays schools??? Surely not.

[rapid van cleef]

You mean to say this is not the case in todays schools??? Surely not.

Every school runs their class allocations differently. Just because a class may be streamed, does not mean all kids are at the same level. Its approximate, the range of learning skills will still be huge. For example you can stream a maths class based on their maths ability, but some kids are great at maths and cant put a sentence together or spell or maybe they are autistic , or have adhd. So written and verbal instruction have to be delivered in a wide range of manners to enable most of the kids to access the curriculum. There will always be some that excell and some that dont achieve because they have no food, low self esteem, being bullied, lazy, too cool for school and some are plain nasty little fuckers. Learning to recognise these traits takes years of developing people skills and getting to know students over a long period of time to find out how to motivate them and communicate with each of them to get the most out of them( if your actually trying to do your job properly). Some teachers are very good at this, some are not. Some teachers really know their subject matter but lack some people skills. That is not a good recipe. But its like all walks of life, some excell, some average, some not so. The people that know all the dynamics that can occur in classroom do so because they have been doing it for many years. The people that dont know will never understand. I never expect anyone too understand either, its just my job, I like it. And to the grammar police, I'm not in the classroom now so you can imagine my middle finger all by itself whilst I sit at home over the summer for 6 weeks!(yeah right)

[SVboy]

Every school runs their class allocations differently. Just because a class may be streamed, does not mean all kids are at the same level. Its approximate, the range of learning skills will still be huge. For example you can stream a maths class based on their maths ability, but some kids are great at maths and cant put a sentence together or spell or maybe they are autistic , or have adhd. So written and verbal instruction have to be delivered in a wide range of manners to enable most of the kids to access the curriculum. There will always be some that excell and some that dont achieve because they have no food, low self esteem, being bullied, lazy, too cool for school and some are plain nasty little fuckers. Learning to recognise these traits takes years of developing people skills and getting to know students over a long period of time to find out how to motivate them and communicate with each of them to get the most out of them( if your actually trying to do your job properly). Some teachers are very good at this, some are not. Some teachers really know their subject matter but lack some people skills. That is not a good recipe. But its like all walks of life, some excell, some average, some not so. The people that know all the dynamics that can occur in classroom do so because they have been doing it for many years. The people that dont know will never understand. I never expect anyone too understand either, its just my job, I like it. And to the grammar police, I'm not in the classroom now so you can imagine my middle finger all by itself whilst I sit at home over the summer for 6 weeks!(yeah right)

Plus1000! I think this post sums it up in a nutshell. If anyone thinks they can put a performance pay package that is equitable and all encompassing around the variance as shown above,they have not grasped the reality of modern education or they are mindlessly following a political agenda.

[rainman]

bwaaaa ha ha ha haaaa. Wasn't the Rt Honourable Mr Banks complaining relatively recently ago that there were too many teachers coming out of Uni?

Not something you'll hear me say often, but he's right.

Wife's a teacher, good experience, great skills, qualified at senior and junior school levels, has specialities in particular subjects, lots of good references from happy principals where she has done relief teaching, but there are just no permanent jobs in our area. Oversupply. This has been the case for some years. Know several other people in exactly the same situation. That said she probably makes more money with a mix of relief work, tutoring, and doing various other jobs than she would in teaching full-time. But she'd take a full-time role if one was available. It's not about the money.

And two other things: 1. No amount of money is worth the shit she puts up with from kids and parents alike. If it were me I'd thump the little fuckers before morning tea time, and probably thump the parents later. And that's as a peace-loving hippie buddhist beatnik. 2. She (and her friends at the same level) make considerably less money than the figures quoted at the start of this post. And a vast amount of personal money gets spent buying shit for the classroom (art supplies etc.) that the ministry won't fund.

The teacher-hating crap that emanates (mostly) from the right in NZ just indicates to me that some people have authority/mommy issues.

[mashman]

Not something you'll hear me say often, but he's right.

Wife's a teacher, good experience, great skills, qualified at senior and junior school levels, has specialities in particular subjects, lots of good references from happy principals where she has done relief teaching, but there are just no permanent jobs in our area. Oversupply. This has been the case for some years. Know several other people in exactly the same situation. That said she probably makes more money with a mix of relief work, tutoring, and doing various other jobs than she would in teaching full-time. But she'd take a full-time role if one was available. It's not about the money.

And two other things: 1. No amount of money is worth the shit she puts up with from kids and parents alike. If it were me I'd thump the little fuckers before morning tea time, and probably thump the parents later. And that's as a peace-loving hippie buddhist beatnik. 2. She (and her friends at the same level) make considerably less money than the figures quoted at the start of this post. And a vast amount of personal money gets spent buying shit for the classroom (art supplies etc.) that the ministry won't fund.

The teacher-hating crap that emanates (mostly) from the right in NZ just indicates to me that some people have authority/mommy issues.

Yeah, nah. My mum had the exact same issues 10 years ago. Qualified, had plenty of relief work (both well off schools and tough schools) and desperately wanted to be able to teach the same kids on a regular basis. She's training people, but not in a school and she's not too thrilled about not having to the job that she wanted, was trained for and very much has the skills for (I take full credit for her being able to deal with "bad" kids... ok, not full credit).

The issue is money. Sorry to crack out the old record etc... but at the end of the day the only thing stopping more than one teacher being allowed to teach the same bunch of kids in the same classroom is finance. The govt can't afford it. My mum, and probably your wife, should have been mentors to those coming through as some of us assume theoretical teaching is likely light years from dealing with the variables of the classroom. Much better to shorten the learning curve if at all possible, but over a year or two, not a few weeks. I understand it's not about the money for them, it rarely is when people do jobs that are akin to shoving shit uphill.

Heh.. It ain't really teacher hating crap though is it (not wholly anyway)? We could likely say the same thing about nurses/doctors/binmen/politicians/employers etc... The issue that I see, is that the "haters" would like to see some form of redress for those who are genuinely good at what they do. Whilst not a bad "idea" in itself (given the way we live), it's the writing off of those who are perceived to be of lesser ability etc... where that may not actually be the case... and only because the computer/formula/checks and balances says so. I call it fuckin ridiculous, some call it progress, some call it fair, some really don't give a shit, or are unable to grasp the simple concept, that it's the education (amongst other things) of the next generation that's at stake. Ommmmmmm. Viva la difference, stop trying to measure it.

[oldrider]

The teacher-hating crap that emanates (mostly) from the right in NZ just indicates to me that some people have authority/mommy issues.

Teachers complain about their lot constantly .... if one dares to offer an alternative suggestion, one gets branded a teacher hater or a right winger!

It reminds me of a drunk defending his bottle!

I thought you would have been above that kinda crap rainman! (then again maybe you really are!)

Little kids are hard to train away from their cuddly blankets, the teachers seem to have adopted their less than perfect employments conditions as their own cuddly!

There's nothing more to discuss on this self perpetuating subject, the participants don't appear to want to solve it or change it for a better deal!

[Jantar]

..... Anyway back to your vague "criteria" for performance pay-what were they again? Go on, try and spell out some specifics!

Ok, I've been giving this some thought. My own salary has a 15% Performance Incentive bonus available, so I tried to see how this same formula could be applied to teachers.

My 15% is divided into 3 sections each of 5% available.
5% depends on the compay as a whole performs, as usually has 2 or 3 components.
5% depends on our site performace and has 3 components.
5% depends on my own personal achievements and also has three components.
Each component has 3 measurement points rated from 0% to 100% achievement.

For teachers this could be something like:
Nationally: (PI is performance incentive)
1. An increase in students achieving National standards of 20% for 100% PI achievement, 10% increase for 50% PI achievement, 0% increase for no achievment in that component.
2. 100% of students passing NCEA for 100% PI, 70% passing for 50% PI, 40% passing for 0% PI

School:
1. ERO report showing all aspects being achieved for 100% PI, most aspects being achieved for 50% PI, some aspects being achieved for 0% PI.
2. School operates at 3% below budget finacially for 100% PI, school exceeds budget by up to 2% for 50% PI, school exceeds budget by 6% for 0% PI.
3. School increases national standards (or NCEA) achievement by 10% for 100% PI, by 5% for 50% PI and 0% for 0% PI.

Individual:
1. Curriculum fully met during school year for 100% PI, Missed by 1 part for 50% PI, missed by 2 parts for 0% PI
2. Assists in x extra-curricular activities for 100% PI, y extra-curricular activities for 50%PI, z extra-curricular activities for 0% PI. (these numbers would be negotiated annually)
3. Teacher will attend and achieve 3 training courses during the year, 100%PI for all 3, 50% PI for 2, 0% PI for 1 or less.

OK, this is just a possible framework. Actual Individual and school KPIs would be negotiated annually.

[The Pastor]

wow do teachers get paid 74k? any teacher on here care to back that claim up? Maybe i need to swap careers!