MotoGP 2013

[Mental Trousers]

Imagine if they ditched all rules and set a strict emissions rule only.......

2 strokes, 4 strokes and maybe this....

That's exactly what I reckon it should be. From the current rules keep the fuel quantity limits, the engine count limits and the ECU rules and do away with pretty much all the others. In theory you could then run a 1500cc single, a rotary, a 6 cylinder, 2 stokes etc. Then you'd see the factories pursuing their own ideas of what a racing engine should be.

[husaberg]

My last post i missed something else.

Please take the time to read it.
The same thing happened (with F1, same guy) "It's all about making it more Professional".......................

add in the Pay TV money and so on...............price for admission goes up so on..........

[pritch]

Then you'd see the factories pursuing their own ideas of what a racing engine should be.

With Moto2 it was anticipated that the rules would encourage considerable experimentation with frames and steering arrangements. The team owners and sponsors though tended to be conservative - and risk averse. So to date all the bikes have pretty much followed the standard pettern. No radically different frame solutions, and I guess Ohlins forks are standard fitment. So much for experimentation.

There are sure to be more original thinkers like Steve Roberts and John Britten around, but sadly the men with the money don't want to know.

Translate that experience to the premier class and radically different anything is improbable.

[Mental Trousers]

With Moto2 it was anticipated that the rules would encourage considerable experimentation with frames and steering arrangements. The team owners and sponsors though tended to be conservative - and risk averse. So to date all the bikes have pretty much followed the standard pettern. No radically different frame solutions, and I guess Ohlins forks are standard fitment. So much for experimentation.

There are sure to be more original thinkers like Steve Roberts and John Britten around, but sadly the men with the money don't want to know.

Translate that experience to the premier class and radically different anything is improbable.

Yeah good call.

Thing is that frames are different to engines. In the engine game within motorcycle racing there is one company that pisses on everyone else when it comes to four strokes and that's Honda. Just to prove the point they finished the 2012 MotoGP season with an engine to spare for each rider and could probably do it again this year. Ducati aren't doing too badly with their engine allocation but Yamaha look like they're gonna be in trouble. Aprillia aren't anywhere near those sort of numbers and are wondering if they want to play that game at all. The rest are using production based engines that are barely getting half of the sessions the Hondas are before being retired, aren't getting anywhere near the horsepower and are using more fuel.

So Honda dominate four strokes and the only way anyone else can compete against that is to do something different like run a two stroke or rotary or whatever.

I've no doubt that if the 1000cc four stroke rules were dropped Honda would dominate the first couple of years at least, but I reckon you'd see people trying to innovate their way around the money barrier.

With chassis there isn't a single player who dominates and nobody can match them so any telescopic forks twin spar frame can be as good as the any other and therefore there's no incentive to try something different.

[Mushu]

I see a couple of people have mentioned rotary engines, is there actually anything in the current rules that disallows them?

[Crasherfromwayback]

I see a couple of people have mentioned rotary engines, is there actually anything in the current rules that disallows them?

4 Cyl I'm guessing would fuck them. Along with the fuel capacity.

[Brian d marge]

Racing isnt really about racing , I suppose you could call it a by product of making motorcycles.
its used to get information and experience and to advertise the product
They have enough budget to experiment off track , and stuff that is useful to the current and near future production runs get tested on the track . thats why MM aint using a hosack frame / forks etc
if it goes pear shaped then its an outside suppliers electrical component
Stephen

tapped out on tablet without the use of stimulants

[husaberg]

4 Cyl I'm guessing would fuck them. Along with the fuel capacity.

HP/litre screws them cause from memory the FIM rates them x2. FIA Rates them at 1.7x

[Mental Trousers]

I see a couple of people have mentioned rotary engines, is there actually anything in the current rules that disallows them?

Direct from the FIM rule book

2.4.3.1 Engine Description
1. Engines may operate on the reciprocating piston four stroke principle only.

The normal section of each engine cylinder and piston in plan view
must be circular. Circular section cylinders & pistons are defined as
having less than 5% difference in the diameter measured at any two
points.

Also the bit about capacity

1.9 Classes
1.9.1 Classes will be for the following categories:
Moto3 250cc 4 stroke, single cylinder
Moto2 Moto2 – official engine
MotoGP 1000cc 4 stroke, maximum 4 cylinders

[onearmedbandit]

Great 'prototype' rules.

[Flettner]

Twostrokes are far from fully developed. If you want a clean, fuel efficient engine, the twostroke would be the obvious choice. Uniflow type scavenge twostoke engines have already shown the way forward. This interestingly can be done without EFI / DFI. Fill the cylinder from one end and exhaust from the other end, clean combustion each cycle with ( if done properly ) no exhaust recirculation. This type of scavenge will produce BMEP's similar to fourstrokes, truly twice the power per cc. At the moment it's not, even including free supercharging from the resonant pipe. The problem is they run out of port time / area / pressure, at higher rpm like a normal twostroke. There are systems "out there" that can produce uniflow scavenge AND increase port time / area ( still using simple light / cheap crankcase pumping ). These have not yet been fully explored.
Using poppet valves in the head is not the answer, perhaps for a low speed diesel, but not for a high speed twostroke.

[Bender]

It's interesting that outboard manufacturers, left alone with no rules dictating that they must use 2-strokes, are mostly going down the four stroke route.

Getting high pressure direct injection wrong destroyed OMC (Johnson, Evinrude) and after it had been bankrupted by warranty claims on its Ficht engines, was bought out by Bombardier. Bombardier has huge experience in two strokes, but its ETEC outboards still have a question mark over them - not because they are two strokes, but because the computers employed in the ETECs to run the lean burning, have been unreliable and the source of many tows back to the boat ramp.

I know of similar problems with Mercury's big two strokes. It was computer problems that made the company turn to supercharged four strokes for its big engines and it now offers a whole range of these (Verado).

Yamaha also got burned when its HPDI technology turned bad with its 300hp engine - most of them went pop, causing Yamaha to quietly remove them from the market, then focus on lightweight four strokes as its future.

And that's the major problem with two strokes - they are extremely sensitive and the way to get low emissions is to use lean burn technology (generally high pressure direct injection). That's very easy to get wrong and the repairs, then further development, are very expensive. Four strokes are far less fussy.

I love two strokes and I'd love to see big two strokes racing again. But the cost of developing two strokes nearly killed the sport once and it would happen again if they were allowed back.

[bogan]

It's interesting that outboard manufacturers, left alone with no rules dictating that they must use 2-strokes, are mostly going down the four stroke route.

Getting the high pressure direct injection wrong destroyed OMC (Johnson, Evinrude) and after it had been bankrupted by warranty claims on its Ficht engines, was bought out by Bombardier.

Yamaha also got burned when its HPDI technology turned bad with its 300hp engine - most of them went pop, causing Yamaha to quietly remove them from the market, the focus on lightweight four strokes as its future.

And that's the major problem with two strokes - they are extremely sensitive and the way to get low emissions is to use lean burn technology. That's very easy to get wrong and the repairs, then further development, is very expensive. Four strokes are far less fussy.

I love two strokes and I'd love to see big two strokes racing again. But the cost of developing two strokes nearly killed the sport once and it would happen again if they were allowed back.

Which seems like it would be ideal to get motor racing into to do the development work, then have that tech trickle down into manufacturing once it is mature.

[Dave-]

How many engines would the 2-strokes be allowed compared to the 4-strokes?

[eelracing]

But the cost of developing two strokes nearly killed the sport once and it would happen again if they were allowed back.

Keep repeating that and one day you might believe it.

How many engines would the 2-strokes be allowed compared to the 4-strokes?

Ask this guy,he only had to replace pistons and rings before a race and change the crank between meetings.And could do it in less than an hour.

Today it takes three parts fitters to replace a pre-packaged engine one and a half hours.