Middle East

[mashman]

The major flaw in your post is that Akzle does not have or believe in a society. He is an individual, determned to remain as isolated as he likes from anyone and any society. Especialy if he has to conform to the rules of society.

He happily accepts the benefits "our" society brings with it of course, otherwise he'd have to be honest and leave.

I have a different opinion on that, so

As for "them and us", JW's in Israel are a mix of all races, prior religions and classes of society. They meet togther and worship together behind physical protection, due to going against the grain of hate and prejudice around them. This is world-wide of course. We have no separation of race and culture, every person is treated as an equal with equal rights and respect. Women are treated with honour and respect, they have an equal voice and children are likewise treated with respect and dignity.

Just recall Rwanda where the Catholics slaughtered each other because they were of two races, yet both Hutu and Tutsi JW's defended, hid and suported each other in the face of death by refusing to sink to the same depths of racial hatred.

One law for all.

"Them and us" goes further than the distraction that is personal belief, I care not what colour, race, age, weight, gender etc... that's irrelevant as you highlight.

I have considered such atrocities and it's a small number who want war. Being paid as a soldier/conscript is better than not being paid at all after all and who isn't going to fight to protect their home, irrespective of why the "warlord" started the fight in the first place? It's a crock of shit and it's at the whim of a few that these things start. I highly doubt that the majority that took part really give a shit about the demographics of the fight. Same with Palestine and Israel. Rip the fences, amalgamate the govts, remove land rights from Israel and Palestine and call the place Palesrael or Israelistine... see how they go.

[mashman]

Don't confuse the facts with whether we are happier or better off as individuals or as a society by having these advances. The point is that this is what most want in their lives and would not want to revert back to those conditions. Some would, certainly but in reality how many do? Not Akzle for sure!

You are embarassing yourself by failing to comprehend what I post and reading your own prejudices into it.

I think you missed my point. Asia builds things smaller, faster, more efficient etc... why would NZ want to be stuck with the clunky old European shit? There's a great big world out there to share. Why is it people believe that we'd end up going backwards? Why would anyone want to ditch the tech and head back there. Just ditch the useless tech. Perhaps you can explain to me why people want useful tech thrown away?

That seems to be a two way street old man. You seem to be confusing logic with prejudice. Not quite sure how that's possible, but fair enough, I can how that might happen given the attitude that goes along with that state of mind.

[Edbear]

Much like Rwanda I would think. It takes a fundamental change of attitude, a genuine heartfelt change, to get people to accept we all belong to the Human race and would be best served by cooperating together for the common good.

While I agree with you here, it sounded from your post that you were criticising JW's who demonstrate in all nations that people can change and accept each other as equals and can work together for the common good, sacrificing selfish interests that could cause resentment and division while freely using their skills in whatever areas they have, to help their fellow man. Nor do we discriminate against those not of our faith, we do our best to help everyone in any way we can.

If our neighbour needs help, we pitch in and help.

[Edbear]

I think you missed my point. Asia builds things smaller, faster, more efficient etc... why would NZ want to be stuck with the clunky old European shit? There's a great big world out there to share. Why is it people believe that we'd end up going backwards? Why would anyone want to ditch the tech and head back there. Just ditch the useless tech. Perhaps you can explain to me why people want useful tech thrown away?

That seems to be a two way street old man. You seem to be confusing logic with prejudice. Not quite sure how that's possible, but fair enough, I can how that might happen given the attitude that goes along with that state of mind.

I see. Yes, I was talking historically, and as you say, we all like advances, but as I was trying to point out, we cannot accept these advances without accepting there would be none without societies. That the world is inextricably linked and Akzle's attitude denies the obvious.

[willytheekid]

..........

[mashman]

Much like Rwanda I would think. It takes a fundamental change of attitude, a genuine heartfelt change, to get people to accept we all belong to the Human race and would be best served by cooperating together for the common good.

While I agree with you here, it sounded from your post that you were criticising JW's who demonstrate in all nations that people can change and accept each other as equals and can work together for the common good, sacrificing selfish interests that could cause resentment and division while freely using their skills in whatever areas they have, to help their fellow man. Nor do we discriminate against those not of our faith, we do our best to help everyone in any way we can.

If our neighbour needs help, we pitch in and help.

It doesn't need to be a fundamental change at all. As said earlier, the majority probably don't want war and already have the attitude that a person is a person is a person, they just don't have a way to police their leaders. Out that structure in and ya'd likely see the end of stupid conflicts. A little over optimistic maybe, but still, eminently doable and within our reach. All it takes is an "educated" vote

Why would I criticise JW's? Might have a joke at their expense, but I would with Catholics, Atheists, Agnostics, Islam, Christianity and Black People too. So settle pettle.

Same here, same in South Auckland, The Gorbals, Brixton, Detroit, Haiti etc... but only if it's permitted by law and the money is available.

[mashman]

I see. Yes, I was talking historically, and as you say, we all like advances, but as I was trying to point out, we cannot accept these advances without accepting there would be none without societies. That the world is inextricably linked and Akzle's attitude denies the obvious.

I say rubbish. It takes an individual with an idea, not a society. It was an apple for Newton. Society just purchases it. Let's wait to see what he has to day as I think you're wrong, or at least much more wrong than right, in regards to his denial.

[Edbear]

It doesn't need to be a fundamental change at all. As said earlier, the majority probably don't want war and already have the attitude that a person is a person is a person, they just don't have a way to police their leaders. Out that structure in and ya'd likely see the end of stupid conflicts. A little over optimistic maybe, but still, eminently doable and within our reach. All it takes is an "educated" vote

Why would I criticise JW's? Might have a joke at their expense, but I would with Catholics, Atheists, Agnostics, Islam, Christianity and Black People too. So settle pettle.

Same here, same in South Auckland, The Gorbals, Brixton, Detroit, Haiti etc... but only if it's permitted by law and the money is available.

Agreed again... careful here, we might agree on more stuff,

It is often the minority spoiling it. Interviews with the Palestinian people show that many want it to be different and do not support Hamas at all.

I say rubbish. It takes an individual with an idea, not a society. It was an apple for Newton. Society just purchases it. Let's wait to see what he has to day as I think you're wrong, or at least much more wrong than right, in regards to his denial.

I look forward to his reply. I try to see where he is coming from, but his posts betray a very slanted understanding of what it reality.

[Edbear]

I say rubbish. It takes an individual with an idea, not a society. It was an apple for Newton. Society just purchases it. Let's wait to see what he has to day as I think you're wrong, or at least much more wrong than right, in regards to his denial.

Oh, Newton was part of a society and appreciated it, as was Ernest Rutherford, and pretty much everyone involved in advancing scientific understanding and technology. If anyone wants to remove themselves from society, they must remove themselves from these advances and show they can do it on thier own without conforming to the structure of the society they are/were part of.

[mashman]

Agreed again... careful here, we might agree on more stuff,

It is often the minority spoiling it. Interviews with the Palestinian people show that many want it to be different and do not support Hamas at all.

I look forward to his reply. I try to see where he is coming from, but his posts betray a very slanted understanding of what it reality.

we will always have religion.

I've seen a few of those, similar with Iranians and Iraqis etc... generally peaceful until the tards start making demands of other country's and their people.

Me too... til then I'll slide on a depends

[mashman]

Oh, Newton was part of a society and appreciated it, as was Ernest Rutherford, and pretty much everyone involved in advancing scientific understanding and technology. If anyone wants to remove themselves from society, they must remove themselves from these advances and show they can do it on thier own without conforming to the structure of the society they are/were part of.

What total and utter tosh. I don't class myself, anymore, as part of your society. I function within it because I have very little choice, but I certainly don't identify with it anymore and would dearly like to try something different. However the choice, yes choice, for functioning within your society is enforced upon me by my family. Under your rules I wouldn't be allowed to educate my children and their health would be at risk coz I wouldn't be allowed to use the hospital or medicine. For me state of mind and what I want for the future sets my society apart from yours, but that's all... it'll still contain the same people.

[scumdog]

"how about. not your problem. leave it the hell alone." sez Axzle

Big call from a man not wanting to be part of 'society' but still wants to stick his nose in anyway...

[Katman]

My son-in-law is an Israeli and gives a good insight into the Middle East issues.

You genuinely are too stupid to understand the meaning of the word 'unbiased', aren't you?

[Edbear]

What total and utter tosh. I don't class myself, anymore, as part of your society. I function within it because I have very little choice, but I certainly don't identify with it anymore and would dearly like to try something different. However the choice, yes choice, for functioning within your society is enforced upon me by my family. Under your rules I wouldn't be allowed to educate my children and their health would be at risk coz I wouldn't be allowed to use the hospital or medicine. For me state of mind and what I want for the future sets my society apart from yours, but that's all... it'll still contain the same people.

Das' funny, I posted a reply but it must have diverted into the ether. That or I hit the wrong key...

I was saying that maybe this is where we differ? I define society as does Wikipedia,

"A society, or a human society, is a group of people related to each other through persistent relations, or a large social grouping sharing the same geographical or virtual territory, subject to the same political authority and dominant cultural expectations. Human societies are characterized by patterns of relationships (social relations) between individuals who share a distinctive culture and institutions; a given society may be described as the sum total of such relationships among its constituent members. In the social sciences, a larger society often evinces stratification and/or dominance patterns in subgroups.

Insofar as it is collaborative, a society can enable its members to benefit in ways that would not otherwise be possible on an individual basis; both individual and social (common) benefits can thus be distinguished, or in many cases found to overlap.

A society can also consist of like-minded people governed by their own norms and values within a dominant, larger society. This is sometimes referred to as a subculture, a term used extensively within criminology."

So while we all live in a society, we can identify with a sub-society.

[Edbear]

You genuinely are too stupid to understand the meaning of the word 'unbiased', aren't you?

Your persistent propensity to make baseless assumptions does more to emphasie your lame-brained attitude than anything I could say.