View Poll Results: Which is Heaver Teezees Beast or the Grifiths Bros SideCar

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  • Sidecar by 2 kg

    2 9.52%
  • Sidecar by 5 kg

    4 19.05%
  • Sidecar by 10kg

    4 19.05%
  • The Beast by 2 kg

    5 23.81%
  • The Beast by 5 kg

    5 23.81%
  • The Beast by 10 kg

    1 4.76%
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Thread: ESE's works engine tuner

  1. #6511
    Join Date
    2nd July 2011 - 08:25
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    2006, KTM, 250 SX
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    Sweden
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    282
    Quote Originally Posted by dmcca View Post
    EngMod2T question...

    For Wobbly, TZ, Dinamik or anyone else who can assist...

    I mainly work on dirtbikes and im trying to model the air space trapped between the end of the carb bell mouth and the inside of the filter... basically the air available for the carb to suck on before it has to draw through the filter... I have today measured this volume on a KTM250exc at 2200cc (vol of the air boot and inside the filter)... and have entered this volume into engmod under the intake screen, as the volume of the air box before the carb...

    My question is how do I model the entry to this 'air box' as the entry is basically the filter?? Obviously the filter offers a restriction but im not sure what equivalent size open 'pipe' would flow the same as the filter... im guessing 0.1-0.2 of the filter equivalent area?? So far I have simply entered the diameter of the filter as the entry.

    To take things even further... this filter sits inside the main airbox under the seat... the volume of this is about 6000cc i think... and it has all sorts of holes and gaps that feed into it. Should i model the entry pipe above to reflect this larger volume of the main airbox... or just forget about it. Basically id really like to properly model the entire entry system, becuse up until now ive just done similar to TZ and modelled the carb with a correction factor and ignored the air box(es)

    Hope this makes sense.
    I knew I had read something about this before, so I revisited Blair and found.. well nothing much useful..

    Anyway, in chapter 8 of "Design and simulation of two-stroke engines", there's a part about modelling an intake silencer, starts mid page 570.
    Basically it just confirms your thoughts about dividing the total air-box volume in two separate volumes using a flow restriction between the two.

    That air-box entry of the KTM seems quite impossible to model accurately (just had a closer look on my 250sx before posting this)...

  2. #6512
    Join Date
    8th February 2007 - 20:42
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    TZ400
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    I havnt used the inlet airbox volume input before with EngMod, as I have never needed to except in our open class karts where the airbox is a spec ICC item and cant be changed anyway.
    So I added a 2L volume with a single inlet tube to a full noise 125.
    This added (mostly) or subtracted between 1 and 2 Hp thru the range in 55 crank Hp - so an inlet airbox can be used to compliment the powerband with careful design.
    One concrete example I tested years ago was a champ winning KX125 in karts, that also had to use an ICC type airbox, but this was permitted to have the inlet tubes modified.
    Stock it had 2 off 20mm by 100 long tubes with inlet bells - I added 2 more, and staggered the lengths from 20 to 100 long.
    This added around 2 Hp everywhere in the 44 RWHp we had at the time.
    The staggered inlets was picked up in tech - though legal at the time, the buggers changed the rules immediately it was discovered.
    Ive got a thing thats unique and new.To prove it I'll have the last laugh on you.Cause instead of one head I got two.And you know two heads are better than one.

  3. #6513
    Join Date
    1st June 2011 - 14:39
    Bike
    Honda NC50
    Location
    Straya
    Posts
    145
    Quote Originally Posted by teriks View Post
    I knew I had read something about this before, so I revisited Blair and found.. well nothing much useful..

    Anyway, in chapter 8 of "Design and simulation of two-stroke engines", there's a part about modelling an intake silencer, starts mid page 570.
    Basically it just confirms your thoughts about dividing the total air-box volume in two separate volumes using a flow restriction between the two.

    That air-box entry of the KTM seems quite impossible to model accurately (just had a closer look on my 250sx before posting this)...
    Quote Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
    I havnt used the inlet airbox volume input before with EngMod, as I have never needed to except in our open class karts where the airbox is a spec ICC item and cant be changed anyway.
    So I added a 2L volume with a single inlet tube to a full noise 125.
    This added (mostly) or subtracted between 1 and 2 Hp thru the range in 55 crank Hp - so an inlet airbox can be used to compliment the powerband with careful design.
    One concrete example I tested years ago was a champ winning KX125 in karts, that also had to use an ICC type airbox, but this was permitted to have the inlet tubes modified.
    Stock it had 2 off 20mm by 100 long tubes with inlet bells - I added 2 more, and staggered the lengths from 20 to 100 long.
    This added around 2 Hp everywhere in the 44 RWHp we had at the time.
    The staggered inlets was picked up in tech - though legal at the time, the buggers changed the rules immediately it was discovered.


    Thanks Wobbly and Teriks...

    The reason i want to do this is because i know someone who has gained some extra power in a ktm300 by simply increasing the volume of the rubber boot between the filter and the carb, so its a proven mod... but i want to correctly model it if i can to test the theory on other bikes.

    I started with modeling the filter as a 10mm long pipe 150mm in diameter (close enough to the diameter and thickness of the filter) and this made no difference in power over modeling it without the airbox at all. Im now im trying an inlet pipe with a diameter of 40mm (its a guess but equivalent to 6% of the filter area, and close enough to the carb size of 36mm) with the same airbox volume of 2200cc and there is a significant drop in power at peak.

    The question still remains, how do i accurately determine the density or opacity of the filter?? Once i have determined and modeled this as the inlet pipe then i can go on with what i actually want to do... model different airbox volumes to determine their effect, assuming that the filter remains the same.

    Maybe an email to the filter manufacturer, maybe they know the equivalent flow rate for the filter??

  4. #6514
    Join Date
    18th May 2007 - 20:23
    Bike
    RG50 and 76 Suzuki GP125 Buckets
    Location
    Auckland
    Posts
    10,516
    Attachment 257809Attachment 257807

    Yamahas 1974 Road and Race Bikes .......

    Attachment 257808 Race 250 port maps.

    The TZ ring peg thing and how its bent to keep it in place.

    Attachment 257806 Attachment 257805

    Ok I couldn't find any good pictures of a TZ ring peg on the net so hunted out some NOS pistons of my own from a 74 TZ350B.

  5. #6515
    Join Date
    18th May 2007 - 20:23
    Bike
    RG50 and 76 Suzuki GP125 Buckets
    Location
    Auckland
    Posts
    10,516
    Attachment 257813

    Now that I have come by a good looking tank and seat I have a re newed interest in the 50. I am not intending to develop this to much, more just get it going and ride it.

  6. #6516
    Join Date
    20th January 2010 - 14:41
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    husaberg
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    The Wild Wild West
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post

    Yamahas 1974 Road and Race Bikes .......

    Race 250 port maps.

    The TZ ring peg thing and how its bent to keep it in place.



    Ok I couldn't find any good pictures of a TZ ring peg on the net so hunted out some NOS pistons of my own from a 74 TZ350B.

    You must be using the wrong bait?
    5th pic on the first cast on a google search on the interwebby thingy (it is getting sort of popular, but, you know kids it won't last. They will soon get bored with it and go back to space invaders and that break dancing)

    http://www.aircooledrdclub.co.uk/for...676&PID=234722

    PS i hope you haven't put a Honda RS tank on a Suzuki that would make me cry a Bucket load of tears

    Just as well Soichiro is not alive to see that.
    Attachment 257820

    He did have quite an interest in piston rings however.
    Like most other countries, Japan was hit badly by the Great Depression of the 1930s. In 1938, Soichiro Honda was still in school, when he started a little workshop, developing the concept of the piston ring.

    His plan was to sell the idea to Toyota. He labored night and day, even slept in the workshop, always believing he could perfect his design and produce a worthy product. He was married by now, and pawned his wife's jewelry for working capital.
    Finally, came the day he completed his piston ring and was able to take a working sample to Toyota, only to be told that the rings did not meet their standards! Soichiro went back to school and suffered ridicule when the engineers laughed at his design.
    He refused to give up. Rather than focus on his failure, he continued working towards his goal. Then, after two more years of struggle and redesign, he won a contract with Toyota.
    By now, the Japanese government was gearing up for war! With the contract in hand, Soichiro Honda needed to build a factory to supply Toyota, but building materials were in short supply. Still he would not quit! He invented a new concrete-making process that enabled him to build the factory.
    With the factory now built, he was ready for production, but the factory was bombed twice and steel became unavailable, too. Was this the end of the road for Honda? No!
    He started collecting surplus gasoline cans discarded by US fighters – "Gifts from President Truman," he called them, which became the new raw materials for his rebuilt manufacturing process. Finally, an earthquake destroyed the factory.........
    Today, Honda Corporation employs over 100,000 people in the USA and Japan, and is one of the world's largest automobile companies. Honda succeeded because one man made a truly committed decision, acted upon it, and made adjustments on a continuous basis. Failure was simply not considered a possibility.


    Yamaha GL750 1972 never made production and disappeared to emerge as the TZ750 later.

    i guess the fuel injection must have put the frighteners on the other Japanese 3 manufacturers
    .Attachment 257834Attachment 257835Attachment 257836
    http://www.classicyams.com/special-y...aha-gl750.html



    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  7. #6517
    Join Date
    8th February 2007 - 20:42
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    TZ400
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    tAURANGA
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    4,087
    Cant be a TZ350 with holes in the piston.
    Ive got a thing thats unique and new.To prove it I'll have the last laugh on you.Cause instead of one head I got two.And you know two heads are better than one.

  8. #6518
    Join Date
    20th January 2010 - 14:41
    Bike
    husaberg
    Location
    The Wild Wild West
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    12,147
    Quote Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
    Cant be a TZ350 with holes in the piston.
    Correct. I assume it is a TZ750 though.(700cc model one's i guess)

    PS fixed the holes in the second pic

    PPS I have watched my father make a peg out of a brass screw filed flat and peened over. For my original Villers powered James after i hastily ran my first go at an expansion chamber. I was so excited to try it. I test ran it without a stinger and lost the top of the unobtainable oversize piston. A bit of TIG welding and machining and it was as good as new. (probably better). It also had alloy fins shrunk over the iron barrel. Well it looked faster with them on.It must have had 12hp or so. Good for 80mph



    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  9. #6519
    Join Date
    30th September 2008 - 09:31
    Bike
    Suzuki GP125 Bucket
    Location
    Auckland
    Posts
    1,969
    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post
    You must be using the wrong bait? 5th pic on the first cast on a google search on the interwebby thingy
    Just goes to show you, use a bit of intelligence and Uncle Google will tell you about most anything ........

  10. #6520
    Join Date
    25th March 2004 - 17:22
    Bike
    RZ496/Street 765RS/GasGas/ etc etc
    Location
    Wellington. . ok the hutt
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    21,191
    Blog Entries
    2
    Nice looking RD350B, have one in my lockup waiting for the owner to lose interest & me to find some money to make him an offer.

    Surely a bit more development on the 50? Say putting the top end on else it will be oversize, the cubic capacity being The Whole World.
    Don't you look at my accountant.
    He's the only one I've got.

  11. #6521
    Join Date
    20th January 2010 - 14:41
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    husaberg
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    The Wild Wild West
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    12,147

    the rest inc Ago

    I have the updated for the 90 TZ750 with KR having a test run on it i will post later maybe.
    The old man actually has none in the Shed..... Bugger.
    He does have an original unrestored YDS3 though Bloody heavy for a 2 stroke.
    It fell on me when i was about 4 so it Explains my disinterest in Yams and my bud spellig ass will.

    I also found the pic of the Italijet. It turns out it was an 80 and way more shrouded than i thought it got me thinking Yamaha added the shrouding ala Suzuki Ram air to the Daytona special RD400 for a reason it certainly wasn't likely for looks. Well if it was they should of sacked the designer. The ugliest of RD's until the LC. i only Love the coffin tanked RD's BTW.

    As well as Suzuki.
    Attachment 257848







    http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/at...6&d=1329473248



    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  12. #6522
    Join Date
    11th July 2008 - 03:59
    Bike
    N/A
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    388
    Hey, Wob What's up? Need anything these days??

    Could you give an idea on how someone could continue engine evolution above 14bar BMEP?

    Actually, let me ask something less stupid. Other than transmission losses, would EngMod results reflect reality if all inputs are precisely accurate? And, say, I reach a X limit of performance in engmod. What are the possibilities of post-simulator improvement without incorporating super-expensive parts or materials or processes?

  13. #6523
    Join Date
    20th January 2010 - 14:41
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    husaberg
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    The Wild Wild West
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    12,147

    Last one i promise with ducting shrouding of old bikes

    I mentioned the JPS it was a basic motor but cleverly done BOB.

    I later pre Cosworth challange (this bike justed mounted the sterring head and the swingarm to the huge 1/4 cosworth v8)ones were monoque and Space framed one other unique feature of the of the jp nortons was the spined mounding of the disk brake to allow it to float.Yamaha copied this later for the quads.



    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  14. #6524
    Join Date
    8th February 2007 - 20:42
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    TZ400
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    tAURANGA
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    4,087
    The simulation is very accurate as Neels has refined it continuously for years.
    Look at his new website page, it has a result I did of the RS485 engine, straight off the sim and onto the dyno,including the ignition and PV curve programmed into the Ignitech.
    All but spot on correlation with around 12% losses across the board for the drivetrain.
    Only departure would be that the PV sim assumes that the blade is close to the piston thruout its stroke - which of course it isnt.

    At the 14bar level you are looking for tiny improvements to the hardware,this costs a fortune no matter what the application.
    As an example - 0.7mm rings, PWM powerjets,ceramic ball mains,deto sensor control of the ECU etc etc.
    Getting the sim to accurately reflect performance at that level is easy - getting the parts to live there - and perform there, is not.
    To exceed that level needs a quantum jump in the basic hardware,Frits has begun the process with his porting arrangement,time for you to step up and think outside the square we live in.
    Ive got a thing thats unique and new.To prove it I'll have the last laugh on you.Cause instead of one head I got two.And you know two heads are better than one.

  15. #6525
    Join Date
    12th February 2004 - 10:29
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    bucket FZR/MB100
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    Henderson, Waitakere
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    4,230
    I've had another idea, that's 2 this year.

    Why are combustion chambers symetrical? Is it just for ease of manufacture? Is there any benefit to being assymetrical? I'm thinking along the lines of reducing or eliminating squish in say one section or even in areas opposite each other. My thoughts were that being loop scavenged a different shaped head may have benefits for scavenge flow whilst still having enough turbulence generated towards TDC. "We" could do it by hand but nowadays with CNC gear it wouldn't be hard to manufacture. Does anyone have simulation software that allows for something other than the normal? Possibly a bathtub shape though not so pronounced.

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