There’s more to life than a university course

[Gremlin]

Kids today are told 'if you don't go to uni, you'll become a nobody' etc, and they believe it. No wonder the trades and other technical trades are going down the shitter.

What Indy said. Too many now think that after college comes Uni. Then they lose their way and have no idea what to do with themselves.

There is nothing wrong with trades and plenty of money can be made if you're willing to work hard.

On the other hand, I was one of those that went straight from college to uni, but had a clear idea I was gaining a piece of paper that may assist in my career path down the track (BCom). Shows I stood still and studied for a few years (applied myself etc). I knew the real learning, useful to my role (IT Engineer) would be on the job... very little of the degree was useful. However, should that evolve into management or similar, then the paper stuff is useful.

Teachers right now... years ago a diploma was standard. Now, if you have a degree you're on a higher pay scale than teachers holding diplomas who have been teaching for decades.

[Brian d marge]

Now hang on here. not saying that a degree is a bad thing far from it the information is actually quite useful. Look at my field , I see this all the time . When designing a part, I reach for a pen and paper , calculate it , then build it ( now here is my weak point , I am NOT a machinist and watching me on a lathe , ,,,,well I wouldnt be in the same room it would probably be too dangerous )

On the other hand a experienced machinist from experience would " Judge the thing " based on common sense and experience. This is fine for many applications , but not for others ( Denco??? and Brittain for example ) and tend not to reach for a pen and paper ...

Probably IMHO, the most effective , and again im just guessing would be an person who did an Engineering degree first THEN became a machinist or similar . ( I refrain from the opposite way round as I worry about picking up habits , rather than coming from first principles , if you can see what Im getting at ) Knowledge then experience , or an apprentiship ... insert smiley !

ANYWAY I digress , it really is about being sold a pup , with regards to education , a model promoted by America and a model that is geared for profit , not education.

breach of contract I reckon.

Stephen

pps there is NO way in hell Im spell checking this on this crappy device , so live with it !

[bosslady]

I've never planned to go to university, all my life I have only one career that I have wanted, that is excavator operating, left school at 16 and have been doing so ever since.
no school can teach you what you need to know in this industry, and some people may wonder why they didn't get the job even though they trained at such and such school and have blah blah qualifications.

ever since? you mean one year? lol

[Hitcher]

Remember too that a lot of qualifications that used to be diplomas are now marketed as degrees. Tertiary institutions should take a long hard look at themselves regarding this "dumbing down" of degrees and the expectations that are often unjustifiably raised in the minds of those who achieve them.

Employers aren't stupid. They know what skills they want and how much those are worth. While a "qualification" may get you an interview, it won't be the only thing that gets you a job.

[SS90]

NZ has some sad days coming in th next decade as far as skilled trades people go, teens nowadays want big big money and lots of time off to spend it, as for working Saturdays..... Bwahahahahah.

Try getting a Plumber,Mechanic or Builder in ten years time, it's what has happened already in places like the UK and some parts of Europe, and NZis catching up fast!

[bosslady]

I think when you're a youngin there is a lot of pressure/expectation from some parents to go to University. My Dad wanted me to go to University or do some kind of course after highschool (I moved out of home when I was 16). I ended up leaving school when I was 17, getting pregnant, having a baby (which usually comes after the pregnant bit), had another baby blah blah blah. Anyway the reason I didn't really pursue any further education, at the time, was because I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT I WANTED TO DO!! And I didn't see any point in doing xyz course just to keep my Dad happy when I was probably going to a) give up/drop out or b) follow a different career path anyway.
University is not the be all and end all but I wouldn't begrudge anyone who does choose to further their education, good on 'em, I hated school, wasn't for me and I couldn't concentrate. Now, I have a very good job in a company that is going places and I feel fortunate because most of the people working here started from the very bottom and worked their way up (just like me). Most of us don't have any kind of formal qualifications, just EXPERIENCE and heaps of passion and exceptional work ethic. I'm lucky that I work for a company that is like this, but they are few and far between and now that we are getting bigger - the new people I am seeing come in, all very qualified and experienced (although we still encourage people to work their way up through the ranks). I'm lucky that I found such a company but luck has nothing to do with how/why I worked my way up nor do qualifications (cause I don't have any) it's all been hard work, determination, passion, work ethic etc. which 'ya know? A lot of youngins seriously lack now days, that's what we should be worried about!

[imdying]

Dr Akzle I presume...

What he said... Hitcher, of all people on here, I expect you to be able to think a bit more logical than that

[Ocean1]

NZ has some sad days coming in th next decade as far as skilled trades people go, teens nowadays want big big money and lots of time off to spend it, as for working Saturdays..... Bwahahahahah.

Try getting a Plumber,Mechanic or Builder in ten years time, it's what has happened already in places like the UK and some parts of Europe, and NZis catching up fast!

Yes, the old MOW, NZR and NZED pumped out generations of well trained engineering tradesmen, until they were first squeezed for budget by sucsessuve restructures and then flogged off. The trade training institutions seemed to be the only ones pointing out the problem associated with those decisions, then. The govt simply said "if private industry want skilled workers they'll make them themselves". Private industry leaders had no idea what the trades did let alone the cohesive organisational clout to train them. You can tell, what was once "fitting, turning and machining" is now "maintenance and diagnostics", because that's what they think such people are used for.

Tradesmen did start to appear again, a decade and a half later, when the shortage had made a large enough dent in export numbers that various industries, polytechs and councils cobbled together a semi-workable system. But the damage had been done, the new recruits are too little, too late, and the old guard are begining to retire, engineering degrees and trades are right at the pointy end of the medium term skills shortage.

And yes, gen Y as a rule don't see any link between work and income, (the real ones, not the oxymoronic one) whatsoever.

[Banditbandit]

By devaluing some degrees, Mr Joyce can convince himself to remove funding from those courses.

A real politician would point people towards education that would ultimately gear up the country to earn overseas funds,
rather than the taxpayer to prop up medics that would go overseas to earn healthy incomes.

Yes. The Government tried this wth the Performance-based research Fund - Once upon a time reseafrch funding for universities etc was tied to stduient enrolments - but this new idea was to identify which areas of research were strong in New ZEaland, invest money in that area to improve the economy ... all degree teachers in GOdzone were required to participate ... Some of us were very amused when the results of the first round of this bul shit showed our top research area was (drum roll here ...) PHILOSOPHY .. well fuck me - putting lots of money into philosophy is going to do wonders for our econonmy .. yeah right.

The ones you think might rate highly, especuially in the agriculture area, did not ... for the results of the last round (2006) of this attempt at social engineering go here http://www.tec.govt.nz/Documents/Pub...ort-25-May.pdf

A few points , and this is from the iPhone so the grammatical details can take a flying leap.
First, student loan , is a loan.` The never had it so good` received theirs free.

Yes . this has pissed me off for a long time .. we got our tertiary education basically for free . and now my generation turns aroudn asnd charges the next generations .. Fuck politicians ...

rom those , u do realize that education is now a business ( along the american model ) and has nothing to do with education ,,,,,,,,just bums on seats

Oh and if you try hard and get a degree you will earn lots more , probably enough to pay off your degree.....

Pawned , classic pawned

Stephen

Yes - from the inside this is very very true - but then the Natuional Government that the majority of Godzone's dickheads voted for have turned everythign into a business ..

University certainly used to be an interest based system of education rather than rankings and money.

Sadly, the whole thing is geared towards money and more worryingly, elitism thanks to the USA "waking" up TPTB to saving money and user pays kicking in.

Eventually, only the rich will be able to get a varsity education and perhaps a return to feudalism will be via knowledge instead of force. I have seen cases where people with a degree have taken over a management position purely due to having a degree, little experience was evident.

Plain old degrees are never enough we were told, they should lead to a Masters then of course a PhD which apparently is where the big bucks are. The problem is, there's way too much theory and lack of being in touch with the real world when pure academia is concentrated on. A quick check of the number of PhDs in parliament certainly gives a clear picture of the dangers of that.

Zedder - I agree with mosty of this (and yes, I do work in Academia . and when I'm at work I'm pretty good at the game. But I've never been one to think that putting alphabet soup after my name is the way to go ... I have litle or no respect for most of the people I work with - and most the PhDs I know are the worst ... fuck I have no idea how I ended up here ... it was not a conscious chice ... I was offered a job when I needed one and took it .. life paths are strange - but they pay me a fuck of a load of money ... so I'm not arguing ...)

Education has always been about producing better people ... not simply job-focused ... a "plain old degree" is perfecftly adequate for that ... it's only the fucking intelectuals who believe otherwise (definition of an intellectual? - A person who has been educated beyond their ability!)

But our Government is determined to get return-for-investment .. so paying for people's education (and despite the high loans etc, the Governmetn does pay somthing like 70-80% of the cost of tertiary education) .. which means the Government wants people to be educated to get higher paid jobs, earn more money for the economy and pay more tax ... Stephen Joyce and Co do not givde a fuck abiout the well-beng of people ..

We have made a fetish out of qualifications - jobs people would have got off-the-street and been very good at - now require a certificate, jobs that once required a certificate now require a diploma and previous diploma-jobs now require a degree .. and people who struggled at school but would be very good at what they do in the workplace now have to struggle through classrooms to get the certificate to get the job ... it's bullshit ...

I've even seen a unit standard in "shovelling shit .. Its actually called "Cleaning a stable" (go here to read it http://www.nzqa.govt.nz/framework/se...NIT&query=1648 ) ... but it's a course in shovelling shit .. and it takes 20 hours of learning to pass it ... buthow absurd is that ??? And the Government is paying institutes and schools to teach this course on shoveliing shit - even more absurd.


FUck . I can rant about my sector for hours ... enough already ...

[bogan]

What he said... Hitcher, of all people on here, I expect you to be able to think a bit more logical than that

Indeed, one would hope that any prospective uni student would look a bit further than a single dominion article The logic in Hitcher's rants definitely seems to be receding of late...

[Swoop]

Remember too that a lot of qualifications that used to be diplomas are now marketed as degrees. Tertiary institutions should take a long hard look at themselves regarding this "dumbing down" of degrees and the expectations that are often unjustifiably raised in the minds of those who achieve them.

Sadly we are going to see even more of this. With the changes underway with qualification reviews, funding for lower level courses will get diverted to secondary schools, leaving the tertiary institutions scrambling for funds.
This means that mid-level courses will be "puffed up" to look like something more grandiose or will be adapted into something already existing which will essentially water down that qualification in some way.



Also, "career advisors" are the bane of this country. It would be desirable to have an open-season on the buggers.

[Banditbandit]

Sadly we are going to see even more of this. With the changes underway with qualification reviews, funding for lower level courses will get diverted to secondary schools, leaving the tertiary institutions scrambling for funds.

I'm not sure I agree .. I think that might be a good thing. The level 1-2 courses tend to be at what I think of as fifth and six form (Is that Year 11 and 12?) .. and a lot are for numeracy and literacy ... having worked at that kind of level, tertiary education is being asked to clean up the messes left by the fucked up high school teachers ... tertiary education should be about extenting people from high school .. maybe in terms of job training or in terms of extended study into academia ... Tertiary education should not be teaching numeracy and literacy - it is forced into this situatuiion becase secondary schools have failed to teach some people to read and write ..

This means that mid-level courses will be "puffed up" to look like something more grandiose or will be adapted into something already existing which will essentially water down that qualification in some way.

Not sure what you mean here ... I get the "puffed up" (and largely agree) I'm just not sure about the whole sentence - can you expand it?

Also, "career advisors" are the bane of this country. It would be desirable to have an open-season on the buggers.

Too generalized .. I largely agree with you - but I've worked with some excellent careers advisers as well .. but they have worked in tertiary institutes, not high schools. The basic message of the high school ones I have experience of should be "I fucked up - so I know from experience ..."

[Zedder]

Zedder - I agree with mosty of this (and yes, I do work in Academia . and when I'm at work I'm pretty good at the game. But I've never been one to think that putting alphabet soup after my name is the way to go ... I have litle or no respect for most of the people I work with - and most the PhDs I know are the worst ... fuck I have no idea how I ended up here ... it was not a conscious chice ... I was offered a job when I needed one and took it .. life paths are strange - but they pay me a fuck of a load of money ... so I'm not arguing ...)

Education has always been about producing better people ... not simply job-focused ... a "plain old degree" is perfecftly adequate for that ... it's only the fucking intelectuals who believe otherwise (definition of an intellectual? - A person who has been educated beyond their ability!)

But our Government is determined to get return-for-investment .. so paying for people's education (and despite the high loans etc, the Governmetn does pay somthing like 70-80% of the cost of tertiary education) .. which means the Government wants people to be educated to get higher paid jobs, earn more money for the economy and pay more tax ... Stephen Joyce and Co do not givde a fuck abiout the well-beng of people ..

We have made a fetish out of qualifications - jobs people would have got off-the-street and been very good at - now require a certificate, jobs that once required a certificate now require a diploma and previous diploma-jobs now require a degree .. and people who struggled at school but would be very good at what they do in the workplace now have to struggle through classrooms to get the certificate to get the job ... it's bullshit ...

I've even seen a unit standard in "shovelling shit .. Its actually called "Cleaning a stable" (go here to read it http://www.nzqa.govt.nz/framework/se...NIT&query=1648 ) ... but it's a course in shovelling shit .. and it takes 20 hours of learning to pass it ... buthow absurd is that ??? And the Government is paying institutes and schools to teach this course on shoveliing shit - even more absurd.


FUck . I can rant about my sector for hours ... enough already ...

Yeah, ROI is the focus indeed. Forget about education for educations sake, it's become really mean spirited. And I agree the fetish is for qualifications.

However, would I do it all over again? Yes, because what I did was a great blend of theory and practical. However, I would probably explore engineering more although that's only recently and wasn't something I was interested in years ago.

[Indiana_Jones]

I spent 4 Years in an apprenticeship (Precision Machining & Toolmaking), I don't owe anyone any money and am looking at buying a house using a significant deposit earned by wages, all within 2 years of Getting my cert. Yes things have gone pretty well for me and i haven't been made redundant with the economy stuff.... But it's no wonder young people can't afford to buy a house and the housing market is 'out of reach' when they are probably paying half their mortgage back in Student load repayments...

Fortunately, I am currently going through a similar process, where my employer is paying me to do a diploma in civil egineering (the replacement for the old CE). Hopefully once I'm done, the wife and I might be able to move out of Auckland and get a house.

What Indy said. Too many now think that after college comes Uni. Then they lose their way and have no idea what to do with themselves.

Agreed, if you want to go to uni because you know what you want to do and the piece of paper will help you, go for it. I have met a few people who did BA's etc because they found it 'interesting' like it was a fucking hobby and break from the real world lol.

There is nothing wrong with trades and plenty of money can be made if you're willing to work hard.

My old man has made a bit of cash due to the lack of kids in the industry.

On the other hand, I was one of those that went straight from college to uni, but had a clear
Teachers right now... years ago a diploma was standard. Now, if you have a degree you're on a higher pay scale than teachers holding diplomas who have been teaching for decades.

The degree vs diploma bit is something that has been a bit of an issue it seems in the civil engineering industry for a little while.

Back in the day your technical people were held in the same regard as the engineers with BEs, now some of the grads I've met are cheeky cunts who think just because they have a degree, they're somehow entitled to talk down to other people like summer students and draughtsman.

Of course the situation is gonna get interesting in the next 10 years as a lot of the senior technical people retire and there's no one there to replace them.....

-Indy

[Swoop]

The level 1-2 courses tend to be at what I think of as fifth and six form (Is that Year 11 and 12?) .. and a lot are for numeracy and literacy ... having worked at that kind of level, tertiary education is being asked to clean up the messes left by the fucked up high school teachers ... tertiary education should be about extenting people from high school .. maybe in terms of job training or in terms of extended study into academia ... Tertiary education should not be teaching numeracy and literacy - it is forced into this situatuiion becase secondary schools have failed to teach some people to read and write ..

Not sure what you mean here ... I get the "puffed up" (and largely agree) I'm just not sure about the whole sentence - can you expand it?

Sadly, you are correct. The schools have failed with numeracy and literacy and tertiary institutions were forced to incorporate this into their existing higher level courses to try and sort out this problem. This is now being handed back to those that screwed it up in the beginning (probably quite rightly so!), the secondary schools.
This leaves higher education with a shortfall in students and funding options.

So, tertiary institutions will take one of two routes to keep "bums on seats" to keep their own bean-counters happy.
1: Take their L1 / L2 courses that cannot now run, and add some lovely content to them so that they appear to meet funding levels required of higher levels. Or,
2: Take a higher level course L4(?) upwards and stick the "old" L1 / 2 course on the front of it (probably well camouflaged however) as a compulsory pre-requisite but which becomes a component of the old higher level course - which waters down the mana of that course.

Either way, high schools need a boot up the arse with regards to their output. Back to the three R's!