There’s more to life than a university course

[James Deuce]

It is when the alternative is to have teachers short change the 90% who are capable of learning that subject at that level.

There's always those who can't quite get it, and most primary and secondary teachers I know do spend a bit more time with them if they think that's all it'll take. But we all know that some of those who aren't performing at that level never will, either they simply can't do it or in some cases they don't want to do it.

You can force that last group to learn, at least i reckon you can, but the kids in question would be the tip of a huge iceburg of objections to that.

Two of my three kids didn't meet National standards last year and one of those two never will. There is a move afoot to remove him from the school based education system. This will become the norm if National lead the next post-election coalition and will include mild autists right through to microcephalic cerebral palsy sufferers . National have been trying to remove the profoundly disabled from the education system since their re-election and have telegraphed this philosophy since the mid-2000s, for those bothering to pay attention. Economically this reduces income for those families affected and ties one parent to the house because you are required by law and threat of prosecution to educate your children so you have to enroll your child in a Home Schooling programme (NZ Correspondence School and other accepted alternatives) and then demonstrate that you have attempted each and every module and then bear financial penalties for failing to meet National Standards - reduced funding and support mostly.

Given the current bulge in the autistic population, this is going to have profound social implications in the near future, because whether or not those kids can be taught is not the issue. Meeting National Standards is the issue and Teachers, Schools, and Parents currently bear the penalty for those "failures" who don't meet National Standards. National Standards rates of success and failure have KPI implications for Teachers and Schools, which with some kids, maybe 5% of the school population, can only be described as desperately unfair.

[Ocean1]

Two of my three kids didn't meet National standards last year and one of those two never will. There is a move afoot to remove him from the school based education system. This will become the norm if National lead the next post-election coalition and will include mild autists right through to microcephalic cerebral palsy sufferers . National have been trying to remove the profoundly disabled from the education system since their re-election and have telegraphed this philosophy since the mid-2000s, for those bothering to pay attention. Economically this reduces income for those families affected and ties one parent to the house because you are required by law and threat of prosecution to educate your children so you have to enroll your child in a Home Schooling programme (NZ Correspondence School and other accepted alternatives) and then demonstrate that you have attempted each and every module and then bear financial penalties for failing to meet National Standards - reduced funding and support mostly.

Given the current bulge in the autistic population, this is going to have profound social implications in the near future, because whether or not those kids can be taught is not the issue. Meeting National Standards is the issue and Teachers, Schools, and Parents currently bear the penalty for those "failures" who don't meet National Standards. National Standards rates of success and failure have KPI implications for Teachers and Schools, which with some kids, maybe 5% of the school population, can only be described as desperately unfair.

Treating kids all the same never did make any sense, on that I agree with National. The current cookie-cutter aproach is producing poor results for some kids and beacuse current dogma has it that "all kids are equal" the blame for that failure is being spread in all directions. Ditch the blame, recognise that all kids can't be best served by the current system and supply the education every kid's parents pay their taxes for. Simple, innit?

[Ocean1]

Fuck .. I can't believe that you writing off childen at PRIMARY SCHOOL ... sure there are a few with learning diasbilities .. but primary school children ???

I'm not writing them off. I'm suggesting they be taught seperately, where thay can be given the teaching they're not getting in mainstream classes. I've sat in enough classrooms twiddling my thumbs while the teacher focusses on the few "problem" kids to have a fair idea how many hrs are wasted.

[James Deuce]

Treating kids all the same never did make any sense, on that I agree with National. The current cookie-cutter aproach is producing poor results for some kids and beacuse current dogma has it that "all kids are equal" the blame for that failure is being spread in all directions. Ditch the blame, recognise that all kids can't be best served by the current system and supply the education every kid's parents pay their taxes for. Simple, innit?

So you support forcing the parents of disabled kids to educate their kids at home, precluding the ability to earn the second income that average people need to be able to break even? You have to understand. National want to end mainstreaming and replace it with nothing, but there is no proposal to change the legal framework to excuse those kids and parents from the legal obligation to educate those children that won't meet National standards. Given that these parents are unable to earn that second income, they are then excluded from participating in a "special school" even if someone were to setup such a school because they can't afford the fees they'd need to pay because they would have to fund both the child's education and pay the wage of the legally required teacher's aide.

Don't get me wrong. I don't support mainstreaming. I think it dilutes effort and means that the kids at the lower end of "normal" don't get the support they need and similarly, kids at the other extreme miss out on attention they need. But to kick the disabled out of schools, replace it with nothing, and still legally require you to educate them to the same standard while punishing you for not meeting National Standards is just shitty.

[MSTRS:Me]

... National ... is just shitty.

Forgive the (mis)quote in the interests of underlining reality.

[Banditbandit]

Treating kids all the same never did make any sense, on that I agree with National. The current cookie-cutter aproach is producing poor results for some kids and beacuse current dogma has it that "all kids are equal" the blame for that failure is being spread in all directions. Ditch the blame, recognise that all kids can't be best served by the current system and supply the education every kid's parents pay their taxes for. Simple, innit?

Naaa .. you're so wrong ... Good teachers teach a class ... not individuals ... that doesn't mean NOT giving attention to each individual .. it would take quite a few teacher training courses to get you to see this point .. combined with a basic understanding of human develoopment, Piaget and all ... and I'm not wasting my time on you ...

Good teachers know that good students in class lift the whole class, while poor students drag down the class ... a well balanced class with a good teacher and every student is lifted up .. too many bad students and the class is dragged down ... drop all your bad stduetn sin one class and you have a recipie for failure ...

Poor stduents need good teachers - good students can learn from anyone ...

[James Deuce]

Further to my argument

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0607/S00405.htm

Bill English refused to release the speech. I listened to it on National Radio and asked for a copy. The above was the result when I dug my heels in and demanded that it be released.

Within a month of National's re-election in the first term of this current Government, National removed all Government funding for Early Intervention centres and pre-school disabled child education. They neglected to factor in that most people who subscribe to Early Intervention and actively educating disabled children, might actually come from their own potential voter base and were forced to reinstate Government subsidies for these services. It still cost us $800/term. But we could cut back and afford that.

Under the guise of National Standards, National are doing their best for it to be untenable to educate the intellectually disabled, but there is NO plan to provide alternate services of ANY description.

[Brian d marge]

Further to my argument

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0607/S00405.htm

Bill English refused to release the speech. I listened to it on National Radio and asked for a copy. The above was the result when I dug my heels in and demanded that it be released.

Within a month of National's re-election in the first term of this current Government, National removed all Government funding for Early Intervention centres and pre-school disabled child education. They neglected to factor in that most people who subscribe to Early Intervention and actively educating disabled children, might actually come from their own potential voter base and were forced to reinstate Government subsidies for these services. It still cost us $800/term. But we could cut back and afford that.

Under the guise of National Standards, National are doing their best for it to be untenable to educate the intellectually disabled, but there is NO plan to provide alternate services of ANY description.

Am now in a position to comment
My oldest , bright as a button , ( is the ONLY one so far to figure out the remote control and the DVD player ) , is struggling at Kanji and reading. We thought he was , Stupid .
looked at the short bus for a while , untill ( thank you Japanese education system ) the powers that be , explained it to us ,,,because he is getting twice the amount of infomation as the others due to Language , culture and a idiot father ( me) ) he simpliy is processing stuff as fast as he can , in the order of his growth , ie his brain is growing and at different times he excels or fails , depending

point being , he doesnt fit into, the main stream and will fail the relevant tests , with one assume life long consequenses.

Now we were lucky to find this out , so we could take action, ( none or reduced , or different homework , short learning spells etc)

Imagine if we hadnt found out ....

Stephen

[Ocean1]

So you support forcing the parents of disabled kids to educate their kids at home, precluding the ability to earn the second income that average people need to be able to break even?

No. I support this:

Ditch the blame, recognise that all kids can't be best served by the current system and supply the education every kid's parents pay their taxes for. Simple, innit?

Don't get me wrong. I don't support mainstreaming. I think it dilutes effort and means that the kids at the lower end of "normal" don't get the support they need and similarly, kids at the other extreme miss out on attention they need.

Which is pretty much exactly what I said.

But to kick the disabled out of schools, replace it with nothing, and still legally require you to educate them to the same standard while punishing you for not meeting National Standards is just shitty.

But I wasn't suggesting replacing it with nothing. At the very least your kids should have access to as much educational value anyone else's do, and a bit more is probably well justified. I'm not aware of what plans National have for education, I don't take any notice of what any of them say they're going to do, it has little to do with what eventually happens. If, in fact they ever suggested I might be responsible for certain performance expectations wrt my kids education while denying me access to the means to manage that, you don't really expect I'd take that seriously? You might see me laughing on the behive steps on the six oclock news, but I probably couldn't be bothered expending that much energy on such transparent bullshit.

[Ocean1]

Naaa .. you're so wrong ... Good teachers teach a class ... not individuals ... that doesn't mean NOT giving attention to each individual .. it would take quite a few teacher training courses to get you to see this point .. combined with a basic understanding of human develoopment, Piaget and all ... and I'm not wasting my time on you ...

Good teachers know that good students in class lift the whole class, while poor students drag down the class ... a well balanced class with a good teacher and every student is lifted up .. too many bad students and the class is dragged down ... drop all your bad stduetn sin one class and you have a recipie for failure ...

Poor stduents need good teachers - good students can learn from anyone ...

What? I must be wrong because you don't agree? And you can find an industry expert who's opinions might be able to be stretched so far as to fail to agree with me also? Please.

Have another look, I'm suggesting those at both ends of the bell curve are probably better served in a different environment from the other 90%. I'd be astonished if different teaching techniques and a different sillybus didn't prove more effective for both the 10% and the 90%.

[Ocean1]

National are doing their best for it to be untenable to educate the intellectually disabled, but there is NO plan to provide alternate services of ANY description.

There's a lot of things I'd cut from the budget to make education for everyone a reality. Again.

Let me know if you need pitchforks sharpened.

[James Deuce]

The content of that 2006 speech was the counter-point to National's desire to make the parents of disabled children fully responsible for those disabled children, that is, no healthcare, no education, no benefits, no financial support, etc, etc. The rationale is that rational people would abort a disabled child in utero, or one carrying the markers for a debilitating disease, such as genetic markers for autism/muscular dystrophy and so on. No Stephen Hawkings under that ruling. This is National's Policy in regard to carrying disabled children to term, based simply on the economic cost to society. In my case there was no hint there was anything to suggest that number three was Down Syndrome. No nucal fold visible on scan, no proportional distortions. The proportionality became apparent, but again not obvious, in the third trimester. Even now the proposed testing regime requires an amniocentesis which has a 20% chance of spontaneous abortion which would be distressing if there was in fact nothing wrong with the child.

In regard to the education question, that Bill English speech was predicated on the economic cost of mainstreaming disabled children, and the "distraction" of having disabled kids in the classroom, coupled with the policy detailed in my first paragraph. From the National Party's perspective this means that disabled children do not deserve education or community support as they shouldn't have been born. This isn't fairyland supposition, but actual National party policy that they want to implement and have stabs at every time they change the Minister of Health, or when in opposition, the shadow Minister. As I said earlier they almost dismantled the Early Intervention and Early Childhood Education systems for intellectually disabled children almost as soon as they gained office in the previous term, but stiff parental opposition and rank and file National Party membership opposition (that is probably a misnomer, but you know what I mean) forced a rethink, however is has been indicated this funding will most likely be pulled permanently should National regain Coalition primacy next election. The current Interregnum was to allow these centres to find alternative funding, but there is no corporate sponsorship for perpetually negatively loaded economic units. If it can't be cured to provide a cute back story, no one wants to know. Nor will a National-led Government provide funding for the modern equivalent of IHC and Home of Compassion Schools. Their goal is to make parents completely responsible for cradle to grave care. I imagine that many Kiwibikers will find this completely acceptable and will be giggling at their, "You may have a Gold Medal, but you're still a Ranga Mongol" posters, while sipping their Pinot and complaining about the irresponsible parents who gave birth to such a monstrosity.

The average age of Down Syndrome children's Mum's is trending down and is predicted to hit the low 20s in about 5 years time. The reason for this is that lower socio-economic Mums don't have access to sophisticated tests and decent Obstetricians and so don't have the opportunity to abort. One trend that is raising its ugly head is that infant mortality for Down Syndrome kids in the US is rising rapidly as the Mum's have no medical insurance and can't afford the almost guaranteed 2-3 month stay in neo-natal intensive care and heart surgery that 70% of DS kids need to survive. Those that do survive generally end up living in abject poverty because 90% of relationships fail after the birth of an intellectually impaired child. Usually the man runs away because a spaz doesn't fit his picture of masculinity and parenting opportunity. One thing I'd like to say is that if you have actively aborted a Down Syndrome foetus, that is your choice. DO not go running up to people with Down Syndrome children and start blubbering. Get some decent counselling (it is available) and deal with it. Some parents of DS children aren't as understanding and respectful of other people's right to choose the right solution for them as Heather and I are. It is also very uncomfortable to have to deal with. We have enough issues without yours as well. Having said that you are free to vent to me or Heather. We do care and understand.

The infant mortality and poverty trap proposed by National, coupled with no educational or healthcare opportunity for the disabled children is a carefully engineered way to clean up those kids that aren't terminated during pregnancy. I talk mostly about Down Syndrome because I have experience, though I know parents of other children, such as those afflicted with tuberous sclerosis are reporting that they are being denied healthcare options such as palliative drug programmes and surgical options to reduce discomfort, simply because the prognosis is bad. Rather than treat, the end is hastened along and the kids in question suffer horribly and parents are left feeling incapable of doing the best for their kids. Some are trying to raise funds for treatment in Australia. It won't change the outcome, but the kid in question will have a modicum of peace prior to dying.

[Flip]

Remember you voted for them. Thanks guys.

[Brian d marge]

Remember if you remove the socially disadvantaged or mentally challenged , effectively remove most of New Zealand from the classroom .....especially in Auckland

Insert popcorn wearing smilely wearing flack jacket ....

Stephen

[Brett]

Well, I sort of took a more odd route, while my wife took a more conventional route and studied, and qualified as a GP.
I worked fulltime as a junior construction project manager while studying a NZ Diploma in Construction Management fulltime as well. Starting pay was shit, $25k per annum back in 2000, but progression was fast and lucrative post qualification and a bit of experience, with guys around 28/29 years of age with 5 or so years experience earning 120-130k per annum. Come the recession, work dried up in NZ in a matter of months, I was fortunately/unfortunately overseas at the time between jobs and came home to a job market in 2008 that was at a complete and utter standstill and after 9 months of job searching I changed tact and went into business management. Having succeeded in this, I saw the logic in going back to Uni part time (3/4 time) to complete a Bachelor of Business Studies majoring in Business IT and Marketing, not because I needed the letters, but because it gave me a structured foundation upon which to practice business. It has been hard yakka and fairly up/down, but now on the otherside, I see many opportunities. I still engage in project management on a very specific contract by contract basis from time to time.

On the other hand, my wife studies medicine, graduating top in her class and slowly working her way through the programme untill finally achieving qualification (and shortly fellowship) with the RNCGP's. She has worked tirelessly and very diligently, driven by a passion for helping people and for community health (not money driven at all) and now is in the fortunate position to have exceptional opportunities available to her, both here and in Aussie. The benefits of this type of study clearly pay off.

However...getting into medicine is extremely competitive, good luck to those who try. It takes exceptional grades from school, a very specific type of attitude and even then a good dose of luck. Whoever said earlier that we are pumping out too many doctors needs to have a look at the stats. There are many many jobs available, it is the consultant positions that are hard to obtain, particularly in fields such as Orthopaedic surgery.

My opinion, is simply that each person has unique talents and strengths, and that study for study sake is retarded. Work to your strengths and your passions, because in that, there is a much much higher chance for success. Will my degree in Business help me earn more...maybe, but I know for certain that it has given my incredibly valuable skills that I didn't have before.

Oh....I have paid back my first student loan, and am making strong inroads to my second. My wife is also making solid dents in hers....pay your debts folks.