YOU WILL RESPECT MY AUTHORITAH
Education can be gained from life...from actually engaging in the world and doing stuff. You don't need to pay to go to Uni to learn many of the things universities teach. (excluding the likes of medicine, engineering, law...)Originally Posted by Ocean1
Nail your colours to the mast that all may look upon them and know who you are.
It takes a big man to cry...and an even bigger man to laugh at that man.
Mad nagging bitch!
What you say is very true. Unfortunately qualifications from UoL (University of Life) aren't worrth diddley squat to lots of employers
Diarrhoea is hereditary - it runs in your jeans
If my nose was running money, I'd blow it all on you...
Anarchic Wild Child
I work in Education and have post-grad qualifications in the industry - does that make me an industry expert in your eyes?
And I have seen and experienced exactly the oppositie .. especially for the so called bottom 10% - where students did even worse by being taken out of mainstream classes and placed in classes apparently tailored to their needs ...Have another look, I'm suggesting those at both ends of the bell curve are probably better served in a different environment from the other 90%. I'd be astonished if different teaching techniques and a different sillybus didn't prove more effective for both the 10% and the 90%.
"So if you meet me, have some sympathy, have some courtesy, have some taste ..."
Anarchic Wild Child
Yes .. I agree .. and I'm just crazy enough to respect life learning over classroom learning (even if I do work in a classroom ...)
"So if you meet me, have some sympathy, have some courtesy, have some taste ..."
Forum whore
And all the sciences, teaching, maths...
Bogeyman
It can. And many people need a differtent form of help to access that sort of education too.
Yes. It makes your opinions more likely to align with your industry's consensus on the issue. And if you've got the education you infer you'll know that makes your opinion no more likely to be "correct".
I understand the influence daily exposure to contemporary norms has on every kid, is that the magic you need in your class? You can make room for that and still tailor teaching requirements to different students, but you seem to be saying it's nescessary for those with different requirements to have 90% of the class waiting for their teacher to finish dealing with them before they get the education they need. That was my experience of early school and from that level of expertise I can tell you it's a massive waste of time. It'd be cheaper in the long run to supply two teachers per class than have our kids taught half the time. I'm talking primary/secondary levels, here.
Go soothingly on the grease mud, as there lurks the skid demon
Anarchic Wild Child
Bwhahahaha ... you could be quoting me on that one ... I'm the terrorist the education authorities let in the door carrying a bomb ... I don't agree with the industry consensus .. and I challenge it at every oportunity ...
I value my opinion no more highly than any other .. unfortunately I have a low opinion of my own opinions .. and a low opinion of other points of view as well .. we are all fucked up human beings ... the important difference for me is that some of us have power and some of us have none .. and I usually have a lower opinion of those who have power!!!
Close .. I would not phrase it that way - but close ... I don't like "norms" (bullshit concept) but you are close here.I understand the influence daily exposure to contemporary norms has on every kid, is that the magic you need in your class?
No - what you describe to me is poor class management. This has to do with the way the teacher sets up the class to work to free up teacher time to give individual attention ... if students are waiting on a teacher in the way you describe that teacher is not demonstrating good teaching techniques. I do not support such actions .. the solution is better teachers, not segregated classes.You can make room for that and still tailor teaching requirements to different students, but you seem to be saying it's nescessary for those with different requirements to have 90% of the class waiting for their teacher to finish dealing with them before they get the education they need.
I do tend to think concrete - so you would need to give me a specific class to talk about how this might happen .. but I'd be inclined to give small groups somethign to do .. so the stduents suprot each other (even at primary level .. keep it simple) ... or give them extension work which tey had no chance of completing in the time frame - so the bright kids did not finish and then wait around ... then value the outcomes of the poor students as well as the high achieving students ... Plenty of possiblities ... splitting them devalues the lower achievers .. and makes them even worse ..
I do agree that the situation you describe is not acceptable .. I think there are other in-class options whichare better for the students ..
Not boasting .. I've turned poor achieving high school dropouts into straght A post-grad students when everyone else had written them off ... and they have gone on to high paid jobs, chaging their benefit-dependent lifestyle completely around ... I'm not fucking superman .. if I can do it so can others ... The biggest key is to demonstrate to EVERY student that you value them and what they learn ... take an interest in them as people ... and take an interest in what they achieve ...
I accept that - and it was my experience of primary and secondary school .. it's been 40 years since I left high school - I wonder how much of an issue it is today .. Judging by the students I see coming from secondary school I think there are huge issues there ... and this may well be one of them ..That was my experience of early school and from that level of expertise I can tell you it's a massive waste of time. It'd be cheaper in the long run to supply two teachers per class than have our kids taught half the time. I'm talking primary/secondary levels, here.
But the solution lies some where different to what you suggest ...
Last edited by Banditbandit; 25th January 2013 at 15:13. Reason: Was going to correct the spelling ... not a good example for a teacher to set . but fuck it it's Friday.
"So if you meet me, have some sympathy, have some courtesy, have some taste ..."
Forum whore
Sorry. I'm going to do it again.
Mainstreaming doesn't work for the Intellectually Disabled.
The very best use of those years at school is establishing peer relationships for those kids and for the parents of those kids. Once these people are adults we have to work together to support them in their living environments, employment, and day to day life and mainstreaming prevents these relationships from forming by isolating one or two kids in geographically distant locations. Mainstreaming does divert resources and places unnecessary classroom loads on people who have no training in special needs. The practice of hiring teacher aides at minimum wage means a spotty service at best.
The biggest "complaint" we would have is the disappointment teachers and teacher aides experience when #3 appears to unlearn something. Linear learning isn't an option and despite discussing brain abnormalities common to all Down Syndrome people, it is difficult to communicate how learning is impacted to someone who has absolutely no background in the neurology and physiology of DS. The few special needs professionals we have dealt with in the education system have completely different expectations and an utterly different outlook on what is an appropriate baseline for developmental status and behaviour from #3 and teachers and teacher aides are always shocked to find that #3 is actually astonishingly high functioning. However because he is not a clear speaker most people assume he can't understand what they are saying. We have on occasion been asked to pick him up from school because he is crying and uncooperative only to find that teacher and teacher aide had been openly discussing #3's lack of performance, success and inability to keep up in front of him.
The bell curve being discussed should be those that meet the developmental norms only. Mainstreaming is an unpleasant cruelty for disabled children, parents, teachers and now with National Standards in place an unreasonable load for schools to carry.
If a man is alone in the woods and there isn't a woke Hollywood around to call him racist, is he still white?
Anarchic Wild Child
Sorry .. but my experience tells me that is too broad a generalization .. I have seen an intellectually disabled person pulled from mainstream for just that reason .. and got worse than they were .. I have equally seen them put into mainstream and thrived far better than where they were ..
You are making a way too broad generalisation which in my experience can work to the detrement of disabled people ... and my wife, who is an expert at working with these people - if there is such a thing .. would also disagree with you ..
Hell yes .. my wife can't even get a job any more ... she'd be more than happy to spend every hour in class with these kids - but the schools can't get the funding to pay her time ..The very best use of those years at school is establishing peer relationships for those kids and for the parents of those kids. Once these people are adults we have to work together to support them in their living environments, employment, and day to day life and mainstreaming prevents these relationships from forming by isolating one or two kids in geographically distant locations. Mainstreaming does divert resources and places unnecessary classroom loads on people who have no training in special needs. The practice of hiring teacher aides at minimum wage means a spotty service at best.
I agree .. good professionals listen to parents and caregivers .. clearly you have dealt with "professionals" who think they know it all . better than the parents ansd care givers .. those "professionals" are wrong!!! And teacher aides are not the same as people trained to work in clasrooms with physically and intellectually disabled people .. two very different jobs ..The biggest "complaint" we would have is the disappointment teachers and teacher aides experience when #3 appears to unlearn something. Linear learning isn't an option and despite discussing brain abnormalities common to all Down Syndrome people, it is difficult to communicate how learning is impacted to someone who has absolutely no background in the neurology and physiology of DS. The few special needs professionals we have dealt with in the education system have completely different expectations and an utterly different outlook on what is an appropriate baseline for developmental status and behaviour from #3 and teachers and teacher aides are always shocked to find that #3 is actually astonishingly high functioning.
Exactly - these kinds of fuckwits (not professional at all) should not be allowed near neurotypical children, let unlone non-neurotypical ..However because he is not a clear speaker most people assume he can't understand what they are saying. We have on occasion been asked to pick him up from school because he is crying and uncooperative only to find that teacher and teacher aide had been openly discussing #3's lack of performance, success and inability to keep up in front of him.
I wish Bell Curves had never been invented - as far as I can see they are for the dingalongs to ring .. and have nothing to do with reality ..The bell curve being discussed should be those that meet the developmental norms only. Mainstreaming is an unpleasant cruelty for disabled children, parents, teachers and now with National Standards in place an unreasonable load for schools to carry.
Mainstreamin works for some of these people .. and does not work for others ... it's not a blanket answer to pull them into "special" schools ... it's a case by case basis as far as I can see ...
"So if you meet me, have some sympathy, have some courtesy, have some taste ..."
Forum whore
I'm talking about Down Syndrome in particular, and the experience of all the people we have dealt with in that particular "community" is that mainstreaming does not provide a positive school or social experience. Until you've experienced it from our side your perception is always that of a teaching professional and it is incredibly difficult to get any person in the education sphere to listen to us.
Once Down Syndrome kids hit 7 or 8 their developmental delay begins to inhibit their socialisation with other children and a combination of ignorance and active bigotry from other parents mostly, causes a withdrawal of friendship and social interaction from other children. Every parent we've discussed this with characterises this as a time of extensive negative behaviour reinforcement and crushing disappointment.
The overwhelming opinion from parents involved in mainstreaming is that it was difficult for all parties involved and did nothing to help prepare children and parents for the realities of being an intellectually disabled adult. Your fist paragraph indicates to me that you are locked into a particular concept of education and while I don't mean that as an insult it is the primary reason why mainstreaming is essentially destructive and unhelpful in the long run for Down Syndrome people and their families. National Standards are simply the nail in the coffin. Your child is regarded as not only difficult to manage, he's a spaz and a failure to boot. That is the clear message from SES and the schools we've dealt with so far.
If a man is alone in the woods and there isn't a woke Hollywood around to call him racist, is he still white?
Anarchic Wild Child
Yes - I do get all that, and no, I don't have direct experience with Downes Syndrome children in my classrooms ... and yes, I will wear the critique that from your point of view I'm just another member of the teaching profession ... I can understand why you have that attitude ... In your position I Probably would too ... I won't even try to counter that here ... it would take my actions to convince you otherwise .. not words in KB forums ... I would only say that my concept of education and teaching is that teachers create the environment in which children learn ... and I don't even control what my own students learn - apart from setting the broad parameters of the topics ... (and remember I teach in tertiary - so I don't have the spcialization etc issues that primary and secondary teachers deal with) ... as long as the learn something they pass ..
But see ... now you are being specific and I accept that Downes Syndrome children have their own special needs ... which is not the same as the generalizations you made in the previous post ... I have knowledge of Downes Syndrome in both mainstream (where they seemd to do well .. ) and special needs classes (where they also seemed to do well) ... again, I'd suggest that is is a case-bay-case basis and not generalizable .. though from what you are saying it seems that Downes Syndrome children generally do better in special needs classes .. not mainstream.
And National Standards are a crock of shit ... in the long run they will not be good for normal mainstream students either ...
Get your kids out of where they are - clearly they are not in a good space ... but don't be averse to mainstreaming them somewhere else ... (good luck in Greytown tho' - you have fuck all choices ...
"So if you meet me, have some sympathy, have some courtesy, have some taste ..."
Mad nagging bitch!
To get those "professionals" to admit they are wrong would take a miracle.
And, I beg to differ about teacher aides. I don't know where or when you got your experience of teacher aides but at the school I work at all teacher aides are either qualified (or in training) to work in classrooms with students with disabilities, physical, intellectual, emotional and often all three at the same time. Not only that, they are all expected to do professional development every year relevant to the needs of the students they work with. Trained is exactly what we are.
Diarrhoea is hereditary - it runs in your jeans
If my nose was running money, I'd blow it all on you...
One hell of a ride.
Hitcher - Get off my lawn.
parting of the sensory
...I should have learned a trade. Instead, I finished school, and with no idea what to do next, it was easy-ish for my scientist father to talk me into a BSc. It would have been better if I'd just bummed around, did a few random jobs, and grew up. Instead, I lost interest in a chemistry degree, switched to Earth Sciences, dropped out, got talked into coming back, started an MSc, dropped out, and came back. My wife got pissed off with supporting me, told me to pull my finger out and finish my thesis or get a job. So, I chucked it in, worked as a farm labourer for what was supposed to be 6 weeks, but turned into 18 months, followed by a year as a research technician.
When I discerned I was starting to turn into a moaning, unmotivated gubmint employee, I left and got a very lucrative job as a laboratory supervisor in the dairy industry. After 9 years of that (rising to Systems Manager), I got enthusiastic about IT, and I've had a series of IT-related jobs over the last 18 years, the last twelve as a tech writer. Yay.
Wish I was an electrician.
My three adult sons are all smarter and dumber than me. They're more intelligent, but one works in a butchery for just over minimum wage, one in a warehouse, and one is unemployed (and not on the dole). Their future looks rather grim, despite me trying my best to guide them in the right direction. I guess they inherited crap genes from me...
... and that's what I think.
Or summat.
Or maybe not...
Dunno really....
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