Wrong battery preventing bike starting?

[Skiwi]

From whatyou jave told us so far I would leave the meter on the battery when you push the starter, if it dips below about 11.5 I would be inclined to replace the battery.

[Edbear]

I'd back a Yuasa over any of the new style anyday. Especially after hearing of circuit card failures on the Shorai.
Last thing I'd want on an electric start big thunper half way through the 42 traverse.MHO
(Both reports came from a well trusted dealer employee).

Well all I can say is I have sold over 1,000 batteries from wee scooters to big block V8's, for race bikes to helicopter starter packs to light aircraft to high compression modified Harley's. From TQ Midgets to F5000 racers. I can point to only four batteries that I reckon are genuine battery failures and not due to misuse or abuse or vehicle fault. Even the two batteries I imported two years ago for appraisal are still going strong.

[_Shrek_]

Btw, even with a reading of ~12.4V when off the electric start still doesn't work (works with a car battery).
Does the voltage need to be higher, as i thought someone said the Amp-hr rating didnt' play a part here?

you use a heap of batt power in starting anything - & having to use a car batt to start tells you that you need to replace it, we had a few probs getting the boys XT600 going once we did the carb etc.... we replaced the batt & plug 1st touch on the button & away it went...

[chinny]

You said a "few extra drops of fuel" ... which will NOT result in 30% throttle available.

I'm more inclined to say "Points could be the issue" ... but if the tank outlet at the filter is blocked (LOOK and check it) the lack of throttle will be not getting enough fuel as the engine runs. The overflow will leak fuel out to the ground if the float valve is not shutting off. It would need to be REALLY bad to do it with the engine running.

Take the fuel line off the carb and check fuel flow. (ON or PRIME)




Get a new fuel filter. Inline cheapies are good. "Looks can be deceiving"... ok ... but they don't let much past if they've been on a while.
Take the fuel tap off and check the filter above the tap. Make sure the tap isn't blocked.

Last word ... IF YOU CAN'T BE BOTHERED ... neither will we be.

Since you were right about the spark plug i figured you'd be right about the points - bingo. Only found one set of points, but instead of 2 flat plates i found they had a mountain and valley thing gonig on. One point had been depositing/fusing onto the other.
Tried filing them flat while in place but will have to take them out and file them deeper as this didn't make a difference. Else i will look at replacing them.
Probably are other issues in the electrical department that need attention too.

Will check tap + filter but sounds like its not the fuel anymore.

Regarding the fuel lines i just meant that if its not likely to be the cause of the problem then i'll let it until i get to the bottom of the actual problem. It sounded like a 'nice to have' to me that's why i didn't replace them.

Re: battery voltage using starter motor - drops to as low as 5V when i press the starter so guess the battery's not that good. Good enough in the interim to start bike and troubleshoot.

Looks like a fair bit ahead of me. Will see how i fit it in timewise as i've been doing late nights so far trying to get the bike to run.

Cheers.

[unstuck]

Replace the condenser along with the points, if it has one.

[FJRider]

Since you were right about the spark plug i figured you'd be right about the points - bingo. Only found one set of points, but instead of 2 flat plates i found they had a mountain and valley thing gonig on. One point had been depositing/fusing onto the other.
Tried filing them flat while in place but will have to take them out and file them deeper as this didn't make a difference. Else i will look at replacing them.
Probably are other issues in the electrical department that need attention too.

Will check tap + filter but sounds like its not the fuel anymore.

Replacing the points and fuel filter will be a major part of eliminating problems. A piece of coarse wet and dry folded sandpaper between the points does wonders.

The "mountain and Valley thing" sounds like the problem.

[chinny]

Replace the condenser along with the points, if it has one.

Good idea. The condenser is probably buggered given the condition of the points.

Replacing the points and fuel filter will be a major part of eliminating problems. A piece of coarse wet and dry folded sandpaper between the points does wonders.

The "mountain and Valley thing" sounds like the problem.

Yea some serious metal transfer there.
Yeap will give the wet n dry a go. If that doesn't work i'll look into replacing them, but not too sure how to get them off at this stage, also replacements might be hard to find but i haven't looked into that yet. Hope they be standard though.

[FJRider]

Good idea. The condenser is probably buggered given the condition of the points.

If it isn't ... it may soon be. Remove future issues and replace it. It probably wouldn't run if it was buggered.

Yea some serious metal transfer there.
Yeap will give the wet n dry a go. If that doesn't work i'll look into replacing them, but not too sure how to get them off at this stage, also replacements might be hard to find but i haven't looked into that yet. Hope they be standard though.

New saves "side of the road" issues later too.

Points are usually held in place by two (or three) screws. One to hold the main body onto the base backing plate ... and another holding the adjuster arm in place. Sometimes two holding the main body on. With two electrical wire connecting screws to the base plate. Take photos prior to removing it if you are not familiar with the set up. It's easily forgotten how it goes together.

[ducatilover]

Unstuck beat me to it.
Condensers are cheap. If it's fucked it'll be properly hard to start

[Canis G.]

Sorry it took some time to come back to you. I am assuming you were measuring all this at the battery?

Ok some results. Haven't used the charger yet as i haven't found time to put on the charger and monitor so it doesn't overcharge.

1. Bike off, key out = 12.5V Good charged battery should sit at about 12.8V so something is not up to snuff here.
2a. Bike at idle (no headlight) = 11.9-12.0V Problem 1 - bike should jump up to about 13v here.
2b. Bike at idle (headlight dipped) = 11.4V Problem 1 even worse.
2c. Bike at med revs = 14.4V Right volts here which is good.

Seems like the battery and charging system are ok then? No its definitely not, based on what you have said it may be the rectifier/regulator that is causing you problems (not functioning untill the alternator voltage is quite high) or the alternator is not pushing out enough power until the revs are high - in which case the alternator is crapping out.
Or do i still need to stick it on the charger and do the measurements 0hr, 2hr, 12hr etc readings? Yes, you have to find out which bits are not working..

Give me a yell if you want to test the alternator - gets a tad more tricky from here on in.

[chinny]

If it isn't ... it may soon be. Remove future issues and replace it. It probably wouldn't run if it was buggered.



New saves "side of the road" issues later too.

Points are usually held in place by two (or three) screws. One to hold the main body onto the base backing plate ... and another holding the adjuster arm in place. Sometimes two holding the main body on. With two electrical wire connecting screws to the base plate. Take photos prior to removing it if you are not familiar with the set up. It's easily forgotten how it goes together.

Got the points assembly out today and filed and sanded them down till smooth. When fitted together i noticed they weren't sitting exactly parallel due to my filing being off. But decided to try them out anyway as i was running out of time to do another filing session.
Yep took some photos before removal as i think the position of the backing plate has something to do with the timing as there are notches which line up with a mark on the 'main body'. Tried to return to same position.

Anyway, reassembled, set the point gap and fired her up. No difference. Idle still fine but a bit off now (timing, i think).
So reset the gap and tried again. Much better. Engine now revs through the whole range when in neutral - was stoked!

Took it for a test ride to confirm it was ok, but under load the performance isn't so good. Same problem as last time - hesitates/doesnt fire well when you increase revs. Much better than before, but the problem is intermittent i.e. it wasn't too bad when i first rode off (could still get high revs) but after I pulled over and took off again the problem became worse.

Unstuck beat me to it.
Condensers are cheap. If it's fucked it'll be properly hard to start

Wanted to take out the condenser but i need to take off the case to do that. Munted one of the case bolt heads (they are very tight) so will have to drill that bolt out and probably others too. So condenser will be another day's job.
Bike's not hard to start though - 3rd kick from cold or 1st kick warm usually.

Sorry it took some time to come back to you. I am assuming you were measuring all this at the battery?



Give me a yell if you want to test the alternator - gets a tad more tricky from here on in.

Just what i didn't want to hear! More electrical issues and deep seeded by the sounds of it. Oh well, at least we're slowly identifying the problems..Just that electrical dept isn't my cup of tea.
Ok i'll need to the charged battery hourly test.
Cheers - will let you know if i need tips for the alternator.

That's all for now folks. Hope those that took the day off had a good one.

Will continue to update, but gardens and house have been neglected for the last month so probably slow and steady from here.
I'm pleased with the progress so far though. Gives me confidence that the bike is worth spending time on, with the end goal of getting it registered for the road! Will need a stripdown and repaint for that due to the rust, i think

Thanks for the help - appreciate it.

[FJRider]

Got the points assembly out today and filed and sanded them down till smooth. When fitted together i noticed they weren't sitting exactly parallel due to my filing being off. But decided to try them out anyway as i was running out of time to do another filing session.
Yep took some photos before removal as i think the position of the backing plate has something to do with the timing as there are notches which line up with a mark on the 'main body'. Tried to return to same position.

Anyway, reassembled, set the point gap and fired her up. No difference. Idle still fine but a bit off now (timing, i think).
So reset the gap and tried again. Much better. Engine now revs through the whole range when in neutral - was stoked!

Took it for a test ride to confirm it was ok, but under load the performance isn't so good. Same problem as last time - hesitates/doesnt fire well when you increase revs. Much better than before, but the problem is intermittent i.e. it wasn't too bad when i first rode off (could still get high revs) but after I pulled over and took off again the problem became worse.

I think new points will help. They aren't that expensive ...

The points are opened by an off-set shaft up the center of the points. Make sure the screws are still tight.

Timing is another issue.

[chinny]

I think new points will help. They aren't that expensive ...

The points are opened by an off-set shaft up the center of the points. Make sure the screws are still tight.

Timing is another issue.

Yea i went looking for a set at supercheap but they didn't have any so i tried the file and sand approach to see it helped any, which it did.
Will try going to the local bike stores and see if they have a set, but i'd like to do the condenser at the same time. Need to get a power drill to remove those bolts first though.

[unstuck]

Putting new points on without replacing the condenser is a waste of time, they will just end up burning another hole in them.

[chinny]

Putting new points on without replacing the condenser is a waste of time, they will just end up burning another hole in them.

Yea that's what i figured. I'll check the manual to see if there's a way to verify the condenser is ok, but in the meantime does anyone know how? Its just a capacitor, so i guess a multimeter should be able to verify its not buggered? Keep in mind i can't take it out but may be able to reach its terminals.