SBK World Superbike Championship.

[TwoSeven]

In short, the ducati design sucked - Mainly because of the desmo system (it has a valve lifter, rather than relying on springs as do other engines) and the fact that they use huge inlets - their valve design isnt what you'd expect to use in an engine.

While the result is a great bike and all that, it just couldnt cut it low down power wise with the factory bikes - in particular honda with their RC45 and later inline-4s (which had to be restricted to make an even playing field). While the other factories were restricted to 750cc, ducati moved from 888 to 916, 996, 998 and 999 (the last ones came out to counter the restriced 1kcc machines).

I'm also told that the desmo engine in the 999 is at the end of its design cycle - that is, unless they go up in capacity, they cant get any more power out it without risking it blowing up heaps - which is what happened last year with people paying heaps of cash for bikes that wouldnt even run 500km.

The best way of doing the comparison is to look at the SS racing where ducati need a 748cc machine to be competitive with a 600cc inline machine.

Having said all that - its important to remember that the desmo system, like yamaha's 5 valve cylinders may not be the most optimum way of tuning a machine, its what makes the bikes unique.

The other thing thats happened now is a lot of the cost has been removed from SBK because of new regulations. This allows teams to spend more money on tuning (actually fettling - they are only allowed to change the engine design twice per year) which I think is what we can see with yamaha last weekend suddenly being competitive. I know suzuki pumped in a huge budget trying to secure more brand advertising (which is what the sport is about) because of their lack of performance in motogp.

I found it interesting that suzuki having realised they had a good bike this year, went for a consistent rider (which is a good team strategy, albiet not so entertaining from my view). Thing is, suzi and co are all on the start of a new design cycle where as ducati are at the end of an old one.

I think the benefit of it this year is that we are seeing the ducati riders having to actually ride, rather than relying on the bike to carry them thru and it brings out their charisma a lot more. For example you can tell when Toseland is suffering from the 999s fabled chassis chatter problem as he looks so depressed, yet when thats sorted he can barely contain himself. That makes the riding worth watching for me at least, because part of what I look at is the riders body language and style during the race (to be honest the bikes bore me most of the time).

Thats my two cents anyhow. I suspect others have different views.

[inlinefour]

Anything that removes a monopoly from any form of racing has to be a good thing. I'm more keen to support a team racing Japanese bikes. Why? I have no idea, same with preference to Honda. Sounds like in the next few seasons we might all see some very interesting developments.

[gav]

errr, one thing you failed to mention though 2.7 is that Ducati didnt write the rules for World Superbike, hell they were still racing the old Pantah based 750F1 when the concept and rules for World Superbike were introduced. Why didnt any other manufacturer build a 1000cc twin from the start? They started out with the 8V 851, and it was really the talents of ex 500GP world champion Marco Lucchinelli that made the difference.
As for Troy Corser being boring, did you not watch the last round from Brands Hatch?

[inlinefour]

errr, one thing you failed to mention though 2.7 is that Ducati didnt write the rules for World Superbike, hell they were still racing the old Pantah based 750F1 when the concept and rules for World Superbike were introduced. Why didnt any other manufacturer build a 1000cc twin from the start? They started out with the 8V 851, and it was really the talents of ex 500GP world champion Marco Lucchinelli that made the difference.
As for Troy Corser being boring, did you not watch the last round from Brands Hatch?

Good to see a mixture of manufacturers in the top three of each race. Troy was bloody lucky that he did not have an off though. Would have been enough for me to have kittens...

[SimJen]

World Superbike has always been run by an italian, so the rules have always been biased towards the italian machinery. As can be witnessed by the ruling that allowed Bimota to race without it being a true production bike......Foggy Petronas also used that as a test case so his crap bikes could also compete.
The italian boss also took it upon himself to make it a one make tyre series (Italian Pirelli) without putting it out to tender or consulting non pirelli teams. Suited the Ducatis just fine, but everyone else still caught up.
The new rules are a lot better, although Frankie Chili could stick with a Duc on a good day with his old GSXR750 from a few years ago......it was wicked to watch
As long as they have the crowd numbers it will continue to do well. Bringing back the big Jap manufacturers has helped it immensely as it was becoming a bit like F1.

[TwoSeven]

As for Troy Corser being boring, did you not watch the last round from Brands Hatch?

Yep, there was some good racing. But I think not by corser. Not sure if you have it on vid. But when corser races he never varies his line except by accident.

If you watch haga in the last race, you'll find haga was coming past on a different line and putting in a block simply covering corsers line. As soon as that happened corser when backwards. If you watch several races you'll see that corser only passes people when they make a mistake and move off his line rather than him changing the line (like haga was) and going past.

I noticed this at the start of the year. Problem is it means he is relying on the bike to do all the work - so long as the bike is set up, he will win raced, when the bikes not set up, he will go backwards.

If you compare this to say ross's style which is exactly the same, you will see that ross can change his line to make a pass but will only do so when its required. Thus corser will wait behind a rider until they make a mistake where rossi will change the line to pass. Sometimes rossi will change his line and get it wrong - thats when you see him go wide on the corners - its also what corser tried in the brands race that nearly sent him into the gravel. I suspect you wont see any more attempts by corser to make line changes again. Thats really only the difference between the two riders.

That inability to make line changes is why I call him mr boring. Because i'd rather watch a rider giving it wellie and working the bike rather than just sitting on it and moving the throttle back and forth

[gav]

Guess you werent a fan of Eddie Lawson then?
Troy Corser has always run impeccable lines through out his career, is it a weakness or a strength? Hard to say.... He is one of many riders who when the bike is setup just right is nigh on untouchable, but doesnt seem able to or chooses not to push hard when things arent quite right. Max Biaggi is another and Luca Cadalora also springs to mind. We havent really seen Troy need to dog fight yet, also think a GSXR1000 on Pirelli slicks is probably not as nimble as a motogp bike. Rossi certainly is incredible for his will to win. At Donnington all his nearest contenders had crashed out, yet he still pushed on after numerous out of the seat moments. He certainly is one of a kind.....

[Mooch]

Yeah I don't know how you missed Scott Russell because at that official site it clearly says he won the 6th championship on the Kawasaki as all us guys that have been around for a while know. Here's a copy straight from the website.

17 2004 Toseland J. Ducati
16 2003 Hodgson N. Ducati
15 2002 Edwards C. Honda
14 2001 Bayliss T. Ducati
13 2000 Edwards C. Honda
12 1999 Fogarty C. Ducati
11 1998 Fogarty C. Ducati
10 1997 Kocinski J. Honda
9 1996 Corser T. Ducati
8 1995 Fogarty C. Ducati
7 1994 Fogarty C. Ducati
6 1993 Russell S. Kawasaki
5 1992 Polen D. Ducati
4 1991 Polen D. Ducati
3 1990 Roche R. Ducati
2 1989 Merkel F. Honda
1 1988 Merkel F. Honda

I'm guessing you just looked at the manufacturers title page and because of weight of numbers Ducati won that in 1993 even though Scott won the riders title. Aaron Slight was the other main Kawasaki rider that year (he finished 3rd) and the two of them and the other lesser Kawasaki riders just never got enough points to beat the horde of Ducatis.

Reading though all these threads . , bla bla , Italian runs superbike , tryes too , doesn't count on the road , superbikes run by mafia ....
Hmm , let me check the winning list .... Ducati , Ducati , Ducati , looking for a Suzuki ..... nope can't find one . So what we have here is that Ducati is the most sucessful brand in superbike racing. But heh , a Suzuki may win it for the first time in history .

[TwoSeven]

Guess you werent a fan of Eddie Lawson then?
Troy Corser has always run impeccable lines through out his career, is it a weakness or a strength? Hard to say.... He is one of many riders who when the bike is setup just right is nigh on untouchable, but doesnt seem able to or chooses not to push hard when things arent quite right. Max Biaggi is another and Luca Cadalora also springs to mind. We havent really seen Troy need to dog fight yet, also think a GSXR1000 on Pirelli slicks is probably not as nimble as a motogp bike. Rossi certainly is incredible for his will to win. At Donnington all his nearest contenders had crashed out, yet he still pushed on after numerous out of the seat moments. He certainly is one of a kind.....

Eddie 'I just love to ride in the wet' lawson
An old flatmate used to own a Z1100R replica - I used to borrow it - handled like a wet dog that had been kneecapped, but then was fun to ride

Also had a model of his rothmans honda. Didnt really think much of the cagiva tho although thats what I most remember him for riding.

I remember a debate from the 80s where the poms were compaining about the yanks being unable to ride in the wet. He was one of the people they talked about.

In those days tho, I used to follow 125s, so didnt really know many of the GP riders other than the main ones. People like angel nieto and co.


I think corsers may have a motivational problem is that when he gets passed he doesnt get angry. That means he doesnt get the agression needed to muscle the bike into a passing move. Perhaps he thinks too much

I cant remember if it was him or bayliss that used to fade half way thru the races then come back at the end - years ago in the foggy days.

[gav]

Bayliss never raced in the "foggy years". He eventually came into the Ducati team as a replacement for Foggy after Foggy was injured.