UK - Slave work schemes

[mashman]

Contract of Unemployment

Perhaps you could send that to this lady as she might need it.

[Ocean1]

So you're ok with that if that means that you aren't earning enough to be able to fuck around by taking a day off?

Of course, who else should be responsible?

There are laws for every bad thing in the world, including fraud, embezzlement, insider trading etc... yet these things still happen.

Yes. What's your point?

It would seem that your statement isn't really true.

Which statement?

Money is destroying the human race, it limits innovation, creates silo'd research, drives success at any cost etc... it does more damage than good.

I don't agree. You might as well claim that because some people drown and some die of thirst we should do away with water. Taking a huge guess at what your point is, here I could agree that plenty of people make money through means other than earning it through exchange for valuable work or goods. The world's full of shysters. So what? We still need to value shit, and some of us manage that quite well using time honoured fiscal methods without bleeding cash to dodgy investments.

[mashman]

Of course, who else should be responsible?

So taking a day off to fuck around would be irresponsible now? all based on how much (money) you are perceived to be contributing?

Yes. What's your point? Which statement?

I don't agree. You might as well claim that because some people drown and some die of thirst we should do away with water. Taking a huge guess at what your point is, here I could agree that plenty of people make money through means other than earning it through exchange for valuable work or goods. The world's full of shysters. So what? We still need to value shit, and some of us manage that quite well using time honoured fiscal methods without bleeding cash to dodgy investments.

My point was that your statement

it's not having consequences that removes responsibility for what you do

says to me that without consequences, responsibility is removed... and yet even though there are serious consequences (re: laws), people are still irresponsible. So I didn't see your initial statement as necessarily true, in that consequences or not, you can be as responsible or irresponsible as you like. Too negative?

You're saying some, in regards to water... and those who can't swim don't go near water. You can't avoid money if you can't afford to. It touches everyone. Yes the world is full of shysters and the vast majority of that shysting is financially related. That does damage to the lives and livelihoods of joe bloggs who may well already be struggling... and all for a piece of paper that some fucker plucks out of thin air. Jobs vanish due to a lack of money. No doubt you'll have some economic "excuse" for that, but it's not a job that is lost, it's a person who has to fight an ever increasing number of job seekers that potentially faces losing everything and through no fault of their own, but due to the lack of money available to their employer. It's all money and it fucks people over... however if the stuff didn't exist, that person needn't potentially face the struggle. We can do better.

[GrayWolf]

Now thats typical of the 'you owe me' attitude...
I want to be PAID to travel to work, AND get a free lunch? oh hang on, they are already getting one... the Dole!!

Also shoots the discussion about the 'modern idea' of things getting done without being paid....
what was it?? Oh yeh, any hours worked ABOVE I expect to be paid for, this is from one of your 'new evolved' human beings, those of us who believe in being paid the value of our ;productivity' are supposed to 'move over for'??


(Insert TUI ADVERT)

[davereid]

Now thats typical of the 'you owe me' attitude...
I want to be PAID to travel to work, AND get a free lunch? oh hang on, they are already getting one... the Dole!!

Yes, Sue Bradford once said "working for the dole is like getting PD because you can't find a job"

Her comments made it sound like work was punishment rather than opportunity, and it shows an attitude that many now hold.

I abhor the idea of forcing people to work for the dole, particularly while we live in a society that has exported jobs to the point that they simply don't exist. I can blame SOME of the unemployed for being unemployed, but mostly I have to put the blame on our governments, who have made the decision to export the work of the unskilled.

The next wave of exported jobs will be the IT Sector. Currently one of NZs best paid jobs, IT is also one of the easiest to export. As we slowly gain confidence in overseas providers, IT jobs will move overseas, the current trickle will become a torrent.

[mashman]

Yes, Sue Bradford once said "working for the dole is like getting PD because you can't find a job"

Her comments made it sound like work was punishment rather than opportunity, and it shows an attitude that many now hold.

I abhor the idea of forcing people to work for the dole, particularly while we live in a society that has exported jobs to the point that they simply don't exist. I can blame SOME of the unemployed for being unemployed, but mostly I have to put the blame on our governments, who have made the decision to export the work of the unskilled.

The next wave of exported jobs will be the IT Sector. Currently one of NZs best paid jobs, IT is also one of the easiest to export. As we slowly gain confidence in overseas providers, IT jobs will move overseas, the current trickle will become a torrent.

Work is punishment. Some fucker treating them like a personal slave for 8 hours a day for minimum wage isn't exactly inspiring. Work is a means to an end, it's not for the betterment of yourself/self confidence etc... unless you want it to be. And I think that that is where a chunk of the issue lies. We're not allowing people to treat those jobs as a means to an end without punishing them for it, financially that is. It is seen as having a poor attitude. Quite funny when you consider that the job is getting done. So why give a shit about the attitude of the individuals doing it?

Before I came over here the UK went through a stint of moving IT jobs offshore. Consensus was that the quality wasn't great. Having dealt with some of these guys, who worked UK hours, they were smart enough and their code was good enough. So I share your fear, and they are probably maturing quite well around about now after what was seen as a shakey start.

[Ocean1]

So taking a day off to fuck around would be irresponsible now? all based on how much (money) you are perceived to be contributing?

Taking a day off may be irresponsible, based on how much value you've actually contributed.

My point was that your statement <> says to me that without consequences, responsibility is removed... and yet even though there are serious consequences (re: laws), people are still irresponsible.

Right. Crime exists, therefore the laws against it are to blame and we should do away with them and make everyone equally accountable.

So I didn't see your initial statement as necessarily true, in that consequences or not, you can be as responsible or irresponsible as you like.

I'd suggest that more people are irresponsible today exactly because there's far fewer consequences than was once the case. Those working their arses off to make the best life for their family they can are discouraged from doing so with a huge tax bill. Those who can't be fucked supporting themselves and their dependants are encouraged to continue that behaviour with free accommodation and food. And the further down that road we've gone the lower our overall productivity has become. Today our productive efforts mean that 55% of this country are “supported”. I'd say that was perfectly adequate proof that people are generally as responsible as the consequences of their actions encourage them to be.

You're saying some, in regards to water... and those who can't swim don't go near water. You can't avoid money if you can't afford to. It touches everyone. Yes the world is full of shysters and the vast majority of that shysting is financially related. That does damage to the lives and livelihoods of joe bloggs who may well already be struggling... and all for a piece of paper that some fucker plucks out of thin air. Jobs vanish due to a lack of money. No doubt you'll have some economic "excuse" for that, but it's not a job that is lost, it's a person who has to fight an ever increasing number of job seekers that potentially faces losing everything and through no fault of their own, but due to the lack of money available to their employer. It's all money and it fucks people over... however if the stuff didn't exist, that person needn't potentially face the struggle. We can do better.

And when we didn’t have money the shysters stole sheep. I can’t peel a couple of sheep off a pile in my pocket, though.

No need for an economic excuse for the loss of jobs. In most cases jobs are lost for the simple reason that they didn’t generate as much value as they cost. As for fault? What leads you to believe an employer would damage his business by reducing his staff unless the job wasn’t earning as much as it cost? Who’s decision was it to make a career in that particular role?

And yes, we can do better. We can arsehole the socialist bullshit and allow people to control their own lives. There are certainly people out there than need our help, I know quite a few of them. But we can’t afford to do that if the resources we earmark for that are being chewed up by those who don’t need it. And by “need” I mean those a damn sight less capable than me.

[Ocean1]

I abhor the idea of forcing people to work for the dole, particularly while we live in a society that has exported jobs to the point that they simply don't exist. I can blame SOME of the unemployed for being unemployed, but mostly I have to put the blame on our governments, who have made the decision to export the work of the unskilled.

No, they simply failed to make the decision to levy tariffs to protect workers. I'm not convinced things would be any different if they had, like I said I don't think shielding people from real world consequences works, I think productivity would have continued to decline untill more tariffs were needed...

Work is punishment. Some fucker treating them like a personal slave for 8 hours a day for minimum wage isn't exactly inspiring. Work is a means to an end, it's not for the betterment of yourself/self confidence etc... unless you want it to be. And I think that that is where a chunk of the issue lies. We're not allowing people to treat those jobs as a means to an end without punishing them for it, financially that is. It is seen as having a poor attitude. Quite funny when you consider that the job is getting done. So why give a shit about the attitude of the individuals doing it?

Of course, if you don't like your job you could always change it. Or even, (god forbid) start a business and employ yourself. Although, I must admit it wouldn't be quite as funny when all that work that's "obviously" getting done.... doesn't.

[oneofsix]

No, they simply failed to make the decision to levy tariffs to protect workers.

Simply decided to float the currency, simply decided to sell NZ assets to overseas owners, simply removed protections for the workers like making actors contractors, simply signed free trade agreements with large plays which don't have open markets and who's governments still protect their citizens. Yep a lot of things the government simply does.

[GrayWolf]

Work is punishment. Some fucker treating them like a personal slave for 8 hours a day for minimum wage isn't exactly inspiring. Work is a means to an end, it's not for the betterment of yourself/self confidence etc... unless you want it to be. And I think that that is where a chunk of the issue lies.

You know? I love my job, truly I do, and I get paid reasonably to do it, but it carries a high level of responsibility. You are right, lets look at so many who are 'stuck' in low paying low socio-economc work..... have they done apprenticeships? probably not, have they gained good/reasonable Qualifications at school? Doubt it. Are or do they go to evening classes (oh look self responsibility and self betterment)? Many who are in low paid work are there because they didnt frikkin bother to learn at school, have a 'you owe me' attitude, are too fuckin lazy to get off their arses and rise above the level of shit they are floating in. I will admit that there are people with high level qual's in low paid work, but thats it, they are working. I know of some youngsters who went through Uni, and when offered work, have simply turned it down as 'beneath them' They consider they should ONLY have a pay scale for a Degree holder, and nothing less..... So they'd rather sit on the rock n roll and bleat they cant fine 'meaningful employment'.

Before I came over here the UK went through a stint of moving IT jobs offshore. Consensus was that the quality wasn't great. Having dealt with some of these guys, who worked UK hours, they were smart enough and their code was good enough. So I share your fear, and they are probably maturing quite well around about now after what was seen as a shakey start.

Yes I moved here from the UK in 1991, right after the recession, poll tax, Euro bullshit, etc.. I got laid off at my firm in the mid 80's and that was a week before Xmas, so they didnt have to pay us Holiday money,,, Did I sit and cry? bleat, and whinge about how unfair it was? I was fuckin angry about it, sure.. I couldnt find a job where I lived that did the same type of Engineering I had been involved in, I took a job as night shift cashier at a bloody garage instead. I ended up as 'manager' quite quickly. Regardless of what firms do, the consumer market will always reach saturation in the what were the main centres, Asia, (china/indai/etc) Will eventually reach consumer saturation, wages will rise it's inevitable, and the world will move on to other countries to 'produce' cheaper if they can find them.
yes its a cycle, and what we need right now is a big fat World War, to thin population down, kickstart technological development, and reset some of the balance of power.

[oneofsix]

Yes I moved here from the UK in 1991, right after the recession, poll tax, Euro bullshit, etc.. I got laid off at my firm in the mid 80's and that was a week before Xmas, so they didnt have to pay us Holiday money,,, Did I sit and cry? bleat, and whinge about how unfair it was? I was fuckin angry about it, sure.. I couldnt find a job where I lived that did the same type of Engineering I had been involved in, I took a job as night shift cashier at a bloody garage instead. I ended up as 'manager' quite quickly. Regardless of what firms do, the consumer market will always reach saturation in the what were the main centres, Asia, (china/indai/etc) Will eventually reach consumer saturation, wages will rise it's inevitable, and the world will move on to other countries to 'produce' cheaper if they can find them.
yes its a cycle, and what we need right now is a big fat World War, to thin population down, kickstart technological development, and reset some of the balance of power.

looks like that last bit might again be outsource to Korea, DPRK. . Seriously hope not. Hope we can find a better solution this time round.
Worries me when burger companies can convince Govt. depts that they can't find qualified staff in NZ and therefore have to import staff from third world countries which they then use to force wages down by under paying them. The classic USA wetback scenario her in NZ. Plain greed.

[Ocean1]

Simply decided to float the currency, simply decided to sell NZ assets to overseas owners, simply removed protections for the workers like making actors contractors, simply signed free trade agreements with large plays which don't have open markets and who's governments still protect their citizens. Yep a lot of things the government simply does.

Whereas arbitrarilly deeming your currency to be worth the same as some rare metal makes SO much sense.
And NZ's assets SO efficient, (tied as they were to completely reasonable labour performance and remuneration), that thay were massively profitable.
And calling a spade an artichoke, say, rather than a fucking shovel is entirely different from calling fixed-term specialists "employees".
And failing to negotiate trade deals is always going to improve your ballance of payments.

Yup, they'd have been far better to have ignored the real world altogether and done fuck all.

[mashman]

Taking a day off may be irresponsible, based on how much value you've actually contributed.

Because the value just can't wait until tomorrow? If people are in a dwam, for whatever reason, I'd rather they had a day off. I've had 1 employer recognise that and tell me to take the day off, paid, and I appreciated it more than if they had left me to sit at my desk offering half value. Was just discussing something similar at t pub, we should do this over beer one evening, and would appreciate employers/management etc... accepting that as there is no value to be contributed, that an employees time would be better served by being away from work. Not without responsibility i.e. technically on call, but more why keep an employee, that you're going to be paying anyway by virtue of them being there, at their desk/work bench/place of work when it would benefit the employee more to let them have a free day. I know that that's a shocking concept, but I think you'd find that it would go along way towards employee - employer relations that any form of financial remuneration. Yes that's a side bar, but IF I were ever to become an employer/manager, that's the sort of ship I'd run. That's what I call responsibility. Something that just doesn't exist i.e. you're paid to be here whether you have work or not. Deal with it. For more info, see blue riders form... work for us for our conditions and expect nothing in return other than money. That isn't going to make form a happy workforce.

Right. Crime exists, therefore the laws against it are to blame and we should do away with them and make everyone equally accountable.

It would certainly work in some cases, mainly drink/drug related, petty theft etc... I'd say there was a case for giving people that responsibility for that choice, but FFS you've got to pay them enough so that you can say for certain that they are clearly doing it maliciously. Like I've said before, remove money and the vast majority of crime will vanish.

I'd suggest that more people are irresponsible today exactly because there's far fewer consequences than was once the case. Those working their arses off to make the best life for their family they can are discouraged from doing so with a huge tax bill. Those who can't be fucked supporting themselves and their dependants are encouraged to continue that behaviour with free accommodation and food. And the further down that road we've gone the lower our overall productivity has become. Today our productive efforts mean that 55% of this country are “supported”. I'd say that was perfectly adequate proof that people are generally as responsible as the consequences of their actions encourage them to be.

I was read a document or two on the death penalty and murder rates. Murder rates fell after the death penalty had been removed. Bit left field as an example, but what's more precious than your life? (other than your job of course ). If it's legal, what makes you think that that 55% aren't being responsible? they're taking what is on offer because it is there... same as they have always done, same as the rich folk siphoning off their "hard earned" offshore or into trusts or making use of tax legal (not necessarily moral) loopholes etc... Where's the difference? other than the top x% do more damage withholding money than the bottom y% who spend just about everything they earn. The jobs aren't there. It's that simple. I will agree that the work is there, it always will be if you work for free, but why should anyone work for free? the benefit is there to allow people to stay alive and not resort to crime and I'm more than happy for them to have that.

And when we didn’t have money the shysters stole sheep. I can’t peel a couple of sheep off a pile in my pocket, though.

No need for an economic excuse for the loss of jobs. In most cases jobs are lost for the simple reason that they didn’t generate as much value as they cost. As for fault? What leads you to believe an employer would damage his business by reducing his staff unless the job wasn’t earning as much as it cost? Who’s decision was it to make a career in that particular role?

And yes, we can do better. We can arsehole the socialist bullshit and allow people to control their own lives. There are certainly people out there than need our help, I know quite a few of them. But we can’t afford to do that if the resources we earmark for that are being chewed up by those who don’t need it. And by “need” I mean those a damn sight less capable than me.

Stealing sheep is easy to stop. You observe and them shoot at will. Stealing money is all but impossible to stop... especially when people can accrue billions without others noticing.

I get why economic "turmoil" costs jobs and I don't blame employers for it, not really. As you say it's survival for the business... unfortunately it's tough shit for the employee and that can be damaging to more than just a single family... but hey, the economy has to produce or people will go hungry .

... If you think that capitalism gives people control over their own lives you're going to be in fora surprise someday. But we've covered that. In regards to resources, there's huge waste out there. It's massive, unbelievably massive, fucking ginormous. 6 iCraps in 5 years? and not even recyclable. That's a serious fuckin waste. So I'm with you in regards to people using shit that they don't need... still, the economy needs such consumerism to be able to grow and to hell with the fallout. Unfortunately you can't have both... unless of course you remove money from the equation

[mashman]

Yes I moved here from the UK in 1991, right after the recession, poll tax, Euro bullshit, etc.. I got laid off at my firm in the mid 80's and that was a week before Xmas, so they didnt have to pay us Holiday money,,, Did I sit and cry? bleat, and whinge about how unfair it was? I was fuckin angry about it, sure.. I couldnt find a job where I lived that did the same type of Engineering I had been involved in, I took a job as night shift cashier at a bloody garage instead. I ended up as 'manager' quite quickly. Regardless of what firms do, the consumer market will always reach saturation in the what were the main centres, Asia, (china/indai/etc) Will eventually reach consumer saturation, wages will rise it's inevitable, and the world will move on to other countries to 'produce' cheaper if they can find them.
yes its a cycle, and what we need right now is a big fat World War, to thin population down, kickstart technological development, and reset some of the balance of power.

I have a lovely little dark side that agree with you in regard to a world war... however given that the "powerful" will survive in their bunkers, who's going to be left to farm or treat the radioactive water or make motorcycles or produce technology etc...? As much as I like the idea of a giant reset, I can't see it achieving what you think it might. It'll be a total and utter cluster fuck with anyone anyone with an axe to grind using whatever they have left to destroy someone else.

It's not about sitting and crying etc... there are certain facts that I think people happily miss because it doesn't fit their world view. Let's take your work history for arguments sake. You became manage of the petrol station. In that there were probably a few people vying for that position, but you got it. You got it on what was perceived as merit. But what happened to the others who applied? What I'm trying to say is that there is only 1 of any given job and that job can only fit 1 person. What about those who don't get to fill those available jobs? If noone moved jobs and tech advancement carried on, the dole Q would fill up pretty quickly, as you say, it would reach a saturation point and then what? Move country again? You're right, it is a cycle, but it honestly doesn't have to be if you choose not to let it be a cycle. We can change the rules any time we like should we wish to... but every rule change that has economic trade offs which means that some people are going to suffer. The solution to that seems very simple to me. If the economy is in the way, remove it and replace it with something (for want of a better phrase) more social that still includes work and can deal with economic fluctuations without putting anyone under any unnecessary stress. Where's the harm in cooperating for a change? especially when the benefits would produce a more balanced and less volatile society.

[mashman]

Whereas arbitrarilly deeming your currency to be worth the same as some rare metal makes SO much sense.
And NZ's assets SO efficient, (tied as they were to completely reasonable labour performance and remuneration), that thay were massively profitable.
And calling a spade an artichoke, say, rather than a fucking shovel is entirely different from calling fixed-term specialists "employees".
And failing to negotiate trade deals is always going to improve your ballance of payments.

Yup, they'd have been far better to have ignored the real world altogether and done fuck all.

Whereas arbitrarily deeming your currency to be worth the same as what some group of individuals say make SO much sense? It's still "value".