The value of money has dropped by two thirds in 30 years

[Ocean1]

Meh.

Nah, you're not rational, not wasting my time.

[mashman]

Nah, you're not rational, not wasting my time.

You want my reason for my meh. Other than similar to what you've just posted that is. You were splitting the tax pot and trying to justify govt assistance for business based on how much business has put into that pot. It's not a fuckin kitty to withdraw what you want when you think you should be allowed to because you are a positive contributor. You know what taxation is for. You know that if a business isn't making it then it shouldn't be in business. Why throw good money after bad by trying to buoy up that which you know to be failing and running the risk of turning a business into a negative tax contributor. You really think we should open that box? Of course I understand where jobs come from and the part that the economy and money plays in that. Tis one of the very reasons I want rid of the financial system. But if you can kick the bludgers for not having jobs, then follow your rational reasoning up the tree and pin the real blame where the real blame lies. Yet you continually defend the financial system that drives EVERYTHING.

You keep harping on about responsibility and I see next to none in many businesses. It's all about the money and what that business needs to survive. Nothing more nothing less. It's imperative that it survives because there'll be no jobs etc... What a crock of shit. It's like anything in this world. If there's money to be made something else will take that place. And you say that I'm not being rational.

[scumdog]

Mashy, you may well have some valid points re 'we don't need cash'.

But I suspect it would be easier for you to teach snakes to ride bikes than to get your 'system' adopted by the general population.

Don Quixote comes to mind...

[Usarka]

Mashy, you may well have some valid points re 'we don't need cash'.

But I suspect it would be easier for you to teach snakes to ride bikes than to get your 'system' adopted by the general population.

Don Quixote comes to mind...

Never surrender!

[mashman]

Mashy, you may well have some valid points re 'we don't need cash'.

But I suspect it would be easier for you to teach snakes to ride bikes than to get your 'system' adopted by the general population.

Don Quixote comes to mind...

That will probably be the case where the general population are unaware of the alternative. I'm pretty convinced that there are huge numbers of people in NZ who would see the reasons for it. The majority? Maybe. till then

Never surrender!

Such a shame that cunts like the below get away with keeping the status quo where I believe that they could well be the minority.

[scumdog]

Such a shame that cunts like the below get away with keeping the status quo where I believe that they could well be the minority.

So how do they con the majority then??

[mashman]

So how do they con the majority then??

That's the beauty of it. These days they don't have to so much. Just throw in a recession here and there and threaten job security and it's done. After all, 99% of everything costs money... and what could you pay for if you were on the dole?

[scumdog]

and what could you pay for if you were on the dole?

Everything you would need according to you??

[Brian d marge]

Heres a start

I have also done a similar "what if " and have a few "trials " going on here in tokyo

There are others actually doing it in , in sydney and new York

So it can be done ( IS being done )

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/160...ag=throsnow-20


and IF you wanted to or NEEDED to , its still possible to use cash......

Stephen

[mashman]

Everything you would need according to you??

heh... that all depends on what one is prepared to do to top up one's payments. "Splitting" from the wife and having a second house that we could rent out would do nicely for starters. The odd cash job here and then would top it up nicely. Potentially a little drug dealing for minimal profit but to pay for ones own usage. A little bit of shop lifting for pocket money and impromptu technology acquisition to keep up with the Joneses. Start up two or three businesses each year destined to fail along with so fake staff. No doubt any new acquaintances would bring me up to speed on the finer points of benefiting. Still though, that's a hell of a bad example to set for the kids. Much better to ditch the financial system and give them a real shot at being of value to society instead of just to themselves.

[mashman]

Heres a start

I have also done a similar "what if " and have a few "trials " going on here in tokyo

There are others actually doing it in , in sydney and new York

So it can be done ( IS being done )

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/160...ag=throsnow-20


and IF you wanted to or NEEDED to , its still possible to use cash......

Stephen

If only it were about saving money. Although it is good fun to fanny around with stuff like that and see it grow. Shame that it still takes money to setup and as we're on clay it'll cost a fuckload to get a decent amount of soil to use the space. So far I've piddled about with hydroponics growing tomatoes and broccoli in the bedroom. Learned that broccoli attracts some form of larvae and that the Mrs wouldn't let me decorate the walls with a hydroponic setup. Grow lamps need at least 1kw bulbs to really create sunlight, but only after blowing the princely sum of about $60 building one that would run off a 12 volt battery off the mains. I shoulda got a solar panel to recharge the battery to see how long it would have lasted. We have a veggie garden. Not much but not bad. Shelled a fuckload of beans today with more to come next week. Got oodles of tomatoes. There be spuds in there as I can't get rid of the fuckas. The cabbage are out as are the calui's and the tobacco leaves are drying nicely. Will remove the small leaves next week and hang them and then figure out how to cure them. Got a fuckload of tobacco seed pods that'll need dealing with over the next while... could sell seeds I suppose. And am wondering WTF will grow in winter when the summer stuff comes outta the garden. Oh yeah, also put some contraption together a few years ago and successfully produced hydrogen from water... but materials costs were prohibitive to furthering the experiments. Useful for turning dirty water into fuel and producing clean water out the other end.

It's all doable, but not everyone can afford the setup costs or has the time/skill to do what it takes to maintain the gardens. Having said that, if there were no financial system we could have "professionals", potentially the retired, from each area building and maintaining veggie gardens on people's property's to alleviate the number of out of town veggies that'd need to be grown. Ahhhhhh the possibilities.

[scumdog]

heh... that all depends on what one is prepared to do to top up one's payments. "Splitting" from the wife and having a second house that we could rent out would do nicely for starters. The odd cash job here and then would top it up nicely. Potentially a little drug dealing for minimal profit but to pay for ones own usage. A little bit of shop lifting for pocket money and impromptu technology acquisition to keep up with the Joneses. Start up two or three businesses each year destined to fail along with so fake staff. No doubt any new acquaintances would bring me up to speed on the finer points of benefiting. Still though, that's a hell of a bad example to set for the kids. Much better to ditch the financial system and give them a real shot at being of value to society instead of just to themselves.

All sounds too complicated!

And I eventually figured out ho to be a 'value to society' - cash and all!

[mashman]

All sounds too complicated!

And I eventually figured out ho to be a 'value to society' - cash and all!

It probably is if you get caught.... which technically means that your value is due to the financial system.

[Winston001]

Mashie - I have never doubted your sincerity. The thing is, there are some pretty big brains on the planet and despite the problems you rightly identify with the world's financial systems, nobody has come up with a better answer. Nobody.

What is wrong is our current system of allocating value has become skewed. You are right. A nurse, a bin-man, a sewage worker, they are essential to us all. And sometimes they get paid sod all. By contrast a merchant banker can earn 10X as much for...what? Persuading one group of savers to lend to another group of spenders in the hope that the spenders can grow the pot.

Ok so we should fix that and I suspect most would agree. It is happening but very slowly.

[mashman]

Mashie - I have never doubted your sincerity. The thing is, there are some pretty big brains on the planet and despite the problems you rightly identify with the world's financial systems, nobody has come up with a better answer. Nobody.

What is wrong is our current system of allocating value has become skewed. You are right. A nurse, a bin-man, a sewage worker, they are essential to us all. And sometimes they get paid sod all. By contrast a merchant banker can earn 10X as much for...what? Persuading one group of savers to lend to another group of spenders in the hope that the spenders can grow the pot.

Ok so we should fix that and I suspect most would agree. It is happening but very slowly.

Awwwww that's nice, thanks. I agree that there are some exceptionally intelligent people on the planet and no doubt 1 or 2 of them will have contemplated a financially free society. They may have even raised their voice at some point or other and have been derided for mentioning such. However given what money is responsible for in terms of the damage it has caused and given that the vast majority of that damage wouldn't have happened had it not been for money, why would they persist? I'm assuming that it's an out and out denial that such a thing could possibly work, see Ocean101, given the lack of a such system having ever having been tried. I've yet to see/hear/read of one single reason why ditching the financial system won't work. The best that can be mustered by the "deniers" is that human nature won't allow it or human nature will cause it to breakdown. Other than there being absolutely no proof for that assumption, here I am declaring emphatically that it makes sense. Does my human nature not count? Does the human nature of Jacque Fresco (intelligent man) not count? Does my Wife's human nature not count? Does the human nature of some of my friends not count? I've met a few strangers who also see the sense in implementing such a system. Does there human nature not count? Nearly all of those who have agreed have started from the viewpoint that it cannot be achieved. Yet they have changed their minds the more they have thought about it and discussed it. Perhaps the big brains aren't thinking about it in those terms and are very much stuck playing by the current rules. Who knows. But if human nature is the only argument for a financial system, then the financial system is a failure and we should put human nature to the test.

Skewed? It's way beyond skewed. It touches absolutely everything on this planet. I'm surprised there isn't an air tax yet, oh, hang on, yes, the ETS came pretty damned close. They have infinite money to make a financial system work, yet it still can't get the basics right. It all sounds like we have our station in life and it has been valued at $X... tis your choice what you become, but there are limited openings for the higher salaried positions. Follow that down to there being no job at all. Moderately amusing given that, as mentioned, money is infinite. Earning, spending, investing, banking, valuing, struggling etc... wouldn't exist if it weren't for money. A nurse would be a nurse, binman a binman etc... and they would have access to the necessities of life and likely many of the wants we have too. None of it has to stop just because money doesn't exist and again the only reason given for that being the case is human nature. It's not the allocation of value that is the real problem, that's just a side affect of the mechanism that's being used. Thrice, odd given that money is infinite.

Is it happening? Even if the salary's of the big boys came down, there's the knock on economic affects of that. Less tax for one. Even if you gave employees more money, how will you explain to others who don't receive more money why they didn't? Re-valuing the value of money won't fix the real issues that we have. They'll still be there. Why? Essentially due to a lack of budget. Tis why they're closing schools on Chch. Tis why they're cutting govt jobs and services. Tis why we have recession. Tis why we have poverty. Tis why prices rise. The list of negativity is endless.

NOW please, if you would be so kind, can you produce a damning list of damage that "my" system will cause. If not. Then you agree that I'm more intelligent and much more smarterer than the big brains who don't get it. In fact everyone who agrees with "my" system or similar is more intelligent and much smarterer than the big brains, because we have come up with an answer that they can't.