The value of money has dropped by two thirds in 30 years

[Brian d marge]

The abbos seems to have been ok for a few years , so have the Eskimos , Indian , one nation , an quite a few " herbalists "

doesn't cost much/anything to set up if you think

My aquaponics is doing a treat , Ive added a few fresh water Crays and they are going well ( not sure if you can eat them though ?)

True , I have the same problem ( spinach and spuds are so far lasting the winter as would onions) but then Ive been preserving ...and have FK loads of tomato sauce , marmalade and some raspberry jam

Milk , I made soy milk , ( now this worked but went lumpy in me coffee,,,coffee thats another thing ,,,)

beer , wine and whiskey I make and that works a treat ,, 3 hours once a month .

Im really only stuck on one thing , electricity, yes I know I could make a pelton wheel but without running water , ..... and i cant afford the biomass

so its off to the fish and chip shop for the oil , ( enfields run on oil ).....

its not a new economy just a change of mind set , from I need , to I don't need ,,,,,and i think it may be catching on ,

For example , my Enfield will be fine until the day I pass on , but this laptop wont . If the laptop was modular and repairable ( I use Linux open source ) this to could be with me until i GO

The question is ,IF you dropped out ( or can u) how far could you drop out , until the big brother boys came calling asking for some form of dues

If the dues weren't paid are you entitled to the health system etc ?

No , the fundimental problem as it has always been is greed and those who serve it.

Stephen

[Akzle]

All money is debt.

...And if businesses paid that 55% more money then they wouldn't need to be a drain. So lower them margins, change how jobs are valued and that will also improve overall economic performance.

companies pay tax.
humans don't.

infact even in a "normal" company structure: the tax comes from the employees. (the company is obliged to pay X tax for every employee, so they take it from every employee, instead of off the bottom line.)

of course, a legal person is a corporation and corporations exist with the aim of making a profit. so they must, obviously, pay tax.

so i'd say it's best not to be a person, and certainly not an employee. cos they get a bum deal. legally.

and re: all money is debt: IT IS.
legal tender or a promise to pay.
when?
when something of value come back into circulation (true story).
infact, i do believe, legally the only currency in circulation is coins. i forget which act specifies.
try bills of exchange act, or paper currency act. also i believe the wages protection act specifies that workers must be paid "money". here it is:

money, in relation to any wages, means any New Zealand coin
or New Zealand banknotes, or combination of both, the tender
of which in respect of the payment of those wages is legal
tender

huh. odd fucking wording, innit.

Too full of high ideals - and no skills, knowledge or experience...

not enough guns...

alleviate the number of out of town veggies that'd need to be grown. Ahhhhhh the possibilities.

and reduce the carbon footprint //err tax, eh?

And I eventually figured out ho to be a 'value to society' - cash and all!

really, howsat??

nobody has come up with a better answer. Nobody.

It is happening but very slowly.

you have been reading the thread, huh? i think he's putting forward an answer.

i think it's happening at a faster rate that ever before. more and more i hear people who think along my lines, i hear more people waking up to the bullshit. i see change as a reality that hopefully my kids will get to enjoy when they're my age.

The question is ,IF you dropped out ( or can u) how far could you drop out , until the big brother boys came calling asking for some form of dues

If the dues weren't paid are you entitled to the health system etc ?

you can't drop out. there's no option. there's no box to tick to say "i want to be part of society." or not.
(look up a notice of understanding and intent and claim of right (NoI, CoR) and constructive notice of denial to be governed")
there is no LEGAL option to opt out of society. so they force society on you (which is against the legal definition of society.) so you remain entitled (re: healthcare), but also obliged (re: give the govt half of your life and money). (as a legal person, because it would be unlawful to force this kind of crap on a human. unless they were a slave, then it's legal as.)

as for how far you can drop out... i'm working on it. one problem is see hippies who pay rates etc "because they have to pay tax" which really irks me.
but of course, it's when the govt stops getting their cut that they come to hunt you down to remind you of "your" person's legal obligation to the society you don't want any part of. unfortunately they've got more thugs with guns on hand than i do. elsewise i'd war em on it.

[Akzle]

(2) The Bank shall be a body corporate with perpetual succession
and a common seal and shall be capable of acquiring, holding
and disposing of real and personal property and of suing and
being sued.
(3) Without limiting any other provision of this Act, the Bank shall
have the rights, powers, and privileges of a natural person.

10 Formulation and implementation of monetary policy
In formulating and implementing monetary policy the Bank
shall—
(a) Have regard to the efficiency and soundness of the financial
system:

Bank note or note means any negotiable instrument used or
circulated, or intended for use or circulation, as currency

. .
more when i cbf.

[Usarka]

So how do they con the majority then??

Because everyone's default response when it's pointed out to them is to mock and joke about tinfoil hats instead of actually engaging brain and critically thinking about stuff. Or say that it's too hard.

[mashman]

The abbos seems to have been ok for a few years , so have the Eskimos , Indian , one nation , an quite a few " herbalists "

doesn't cost much/anything to set up if you think

My aquaponics is doing a treat , Ive added a few fresh water Crays and they are going well ( not sure if you can eat them though ?)

True , I have the same problem ( spinach and spuds are so far lasting the winter as would onions) but then Ive been preserving ...and have FK loads of tomato sauce , marmalade and some raspberry jam

Milk , I made soy milk , ( now this worked but went lumpy in me coffee,,,coffee thats another thing ,,,)

beer , wine and whiskey I make and that works a treat ,, 3 hours once a month .

Im really only stuck on one thing , electricity, yes I know I could make a pelton wheel but without running water , ..... and i cant afford the biomass

so its off to the fish and chip shop for the oil , ( enfields run on oil ).....

its not a new economy just a change of mind set , from I need , to I don't need ,,,,,and i think it may be catching on ,

For example , my Enfield will be fine until the day I pass on , but this laptop wont . If the laptop was modular and repairable ( I use Linux open source ) this to could be with me until i GO

Yup plenty of real teachers out there that could learn us a thing or two.

Dunno about fresh water crays... although a guy a Owlcatraz said they were delicious, so I'm guessing they're on the menu. Just slap on some Donna and let them get busy.

Have most of what I need for my brewing, just need to add the lazy man touches. Got an old fridge freezer with drinks dispenser that's just begging to be converted to a beer dispenser. Got an iou for the in fridge kit from mum. Bit more reading to do then yeehaw.

Might give Tom sauce a bash as the girls don't 'arf go through it.

Each time I talk to about electricity generation the idea behind a fly wheel always crops up. Wonder how a maglev fly wheel would turn out?

Noice shit. How easy was it to convert the oil into bio fuel? Or did you?

Damn that milk sounds nasty... fortunately I don't drink it or tea or coffee.

"its not a new economy just a change of mind set , from I need , to I don't need ,,,,,and i think it may be catching on ,"... perfect description. Will use it should I get the occasion to.

Agreed on the modular shit. Fuckin abysmal that they don't build 'em like that. I guess it just doesn't make enough money.

The question is ,IF you dropped out ( or can u) how far could you drop out , until the big brother boys came calling asking for some form of dues

If the dues weren't paid are you entitled to the health system etc ?

No , the fundimental problem as it has always been is greed and those who serve it.

Stephen

You can probably drop out as far as you like... so long as you have a good mate who wouldn't mind you using his identity for medical purposes. Although if you're not putting in you shouldn't be allowed to take pout apparently

So remove the mechanism that allows greed to flourish... and then let society decide on what to do with those who take more than they need. Likely bloody hard to quantify and if there's surplus, then we'd likely never really notice.

[mashman]

companies pay tax.
humans don't.

infact even in a "normal" company structure: the tax comes from the employees. (the company is obliged to pay X tax for every employee, so they take it from every employee, instead of off the bottom line.)

of course, a legal person is a corporation and corporations exist with the aim of making a profit. so they must, obviously, pay tax.

so i'd say it's best not to be a person, and certainly not an employee. cos they get a bum deal. legally.

and re: all money is debt: IT IS.
legal tender or a promise to pay.
when?
when something of value come back into circulation (true story).
infact, i do believe, legally the only currency in circulation is coins. i forget which act specifies.
try bills of exchange act, or paper currency act. also i believe the wages protection act specifies that workers must be paid "money". here it is:

huh. odd fucking wording, innit.

Ahhhhh the justification of it all. What a waste of time, effort and resource. Although it keeps people in jobs and helps to keep the average wage a keepin on risin.

and reduce the carbon footprint //err tax, eh?

Never considered it on that basis, but yeah, I guess it would.

i think it's happening at a faster rate that ever before. more and more i hear people who think along my lines, i hear more people waking up to the bullshit. i see change as a reality that hopefully my kids will get to enjoy when they're my age.

I be one of them thar recently awakened folk and I'm not overly impressed, more disappointed, that others have known this shit for a while and have done nothink about it. Not having a go, I fully realise how tricky it is , but more from the perspective that I had to work it out for myself instead of having someone explain it to me. It gets me all excited when I consider what our kids could achieve and how they would be able to live.

you can't drop out. there's no option. there's no box to tick to say "i want to be part of society." or not.
(look up a notice of understanding and intent and claim of right (NoI, CoR) and constructive notice of denial to be governed")
there is no LEGAL option to opt out of society. so they force society on you (which is against the legal definition of society.) so you remain entitled (re: healthcare), but also obliged (re: give the govt half of your life and money). (as a legal person, because it would be unlawful to force this kind of crap on a human. unless they were a slave, then it's legal as.)

as for how far you can drop out... i'm working on it. one problem is see hippies who pay rates etc "because they have to pay tax" which really irks me.
but of course, it's when the govt stops getting their cut that they come to hunt you down to remind you of "your" person's legal obligation to the society you don't want any part of. unfortunately they've got more thugs with guns on hand than i do. elsewise i'd war em on it.

Has anyone finally worked out whether we are legally obliged to pay tax yet?

[Akzle]

as far as fresh water crays (koura)go, red wine and a pot of boiling water. they're good. not as good as their big salty cuzzies, but quite eatable.

I be one of them thar recently awakened folk and I'm not overly impressed, more disappointed, that others have known this shit for a while and have done nothink about it. Not having a go, I fully realise how tricky it is , but more from the perspective that I had to work it out for myself instead of having someone explain it to me. It gets me all excited when I consider what our kids could achieve and how they would be able to live.


Has anyone finally worked out whether we are legally obliged to pay tax yet?

no, tax is illegal by some decree of a king in the 13th century. noone seems to take any notice...

also, coercion and duress are illegal. so too, is slavery, and i'm fairly sure theft.

BUT as a corporate person (not a living man), you have duties and obligations. it's all about that registration (berth) certificate and some other numbers they use to track you through their books. *ooooh conspiracy theoryyyyyy*.
no, it's actually a fucking fact.
a lot of it comes down to contract law - you contract with a "bank" to open an account through your name, this ALL goes through the reserve bank and IRD.
the IRD can track you monthly by the interest paid on any account, places who start with "ministry" or "department" (social development, justice etc) have fairly unlimited access to "your" bank account.
don't believe me? read the fine print which you signed in a corporate nature (corporate sign-nature= person's signature.) also, try getting your bank not to pay the interest on an account.
you don't own a bank account. the account is opened through the corporate name registered on a berth certificate. you just happen to have (some kind) of control over it. unless a ministry decides you should repay fines, or child support, or tax, or, or, or...

still a good fucking deal?
more on contracts - you sign an employment contract to further reduce your legal status, from a person, to an employee. now, you still DO NOT have an obligation to pay tax, but it's likely you will, you also (under the wages protection act) MUST BE PAID IN CASH (NOT a bank account/DC), of course, as an employee, you sign to forfeit these rights before you start your toil. and anything that goes through a bank account, is, as above, open to the tax man.
also under that act, no deductions (including tax) may be made from your pay without your consent, of course, the employment contract forms your consent.


but see, you're a living soul, and obviously this way inclined, so you naturally gravitate toward this kind of knowledge, many aren't and many don't care, but more are.

i think the more -ahem- elite, of us, have realised that sheep will be shup, and that, as usucka-anus above pointed out, it's so easy to dismiss you an i as tinfoil hatters, the lunatic fringe, conspiracy theorists.
and it's a really good media ploy, the government fucking love it, all it takes is one of us to stand up and call BS, and one of them to stand up and say "tinfoil hat" and that's the end of the argument, to the public's mind.
so there's no point in trying to make anyone elses life better, because they either will or wont, and, as you, if they're naturally inclined that way, they will, if they're not, fuck em.
so we head into the hills, with guns and tents, and, really, fuck what the corporate world does, unless they're going to come and get us, we could really care less what they do.

so it's not that we "do nothing" just that we post on internet forums /stand on soapboxes and people call us tinfoil hatters and everyone dismisses us. we're generally peaceable, so unlikely to stage riots or violent revolution. i guess we're resigned to the way things are, we spread the good word, and make things better for us and ours.

i just read a book from a (corporate slave) mate called "the outsiders" about the NZers who make an effort to get out of society. i'll post it to you if you want. it's got some good yarns in.

[Winston001]

Mashie - you do keep saying that no-one has tried your system but you are quite wrong about that. In fact we've talked about examples in earlier discussions but for some reason you forget.

The most recent and widely known examples are the hippie communes of the late 60s - early 70s. Their ethic was each person did what was needed for the benefit of all. No money needed - in fact they didn't have any money so that bit wasn't hard. Jerusalem in NZ (JK Baxter) was the most famous here.

The communes failed. Why? Because eventually some of the hippies noticed they were doing all the work while the others did nothing.

Apart from the hippies, the Pennsylvania Dutch - Amish and Mennonites, have successfully functioned outside our economic system for over 200 years. Check them out.

There are still tribal cultures in Africa and South America which take no part in the world's financial systems. They have no money (in the modern sense) and yet they survive. Barely.

[Ocean1]

Mashie - you do keep saying that no-one has tried your system but you are quite wrong about that. In fact we've talked about examples in earlier discussions but for some reason you forget.

The most recent and widely known examples are the hippie communes of the late 60s - early 70s. Their ethic was each person did what was needed for the benefit of all. No money needed - in fact they didn't have any money so that bit wasn't hard. Jerusalem in NZ (JK Baxter) was the most famous here.

The communes failed. Why? Because eventually some of the hippies noticed they were doing all the work while the others did nothing.

Apart from the hippies, the Pennsylvania Dutch - Amish and Mennonites, have successfully functioned outside our economic system for over 200 years. Check them out.

There are still tribal cultures in Africa and South America which take no part in the world's financial systems. They have no money (in the modern sense) and yet they survive. Barely.

There's always going to be differences in individual contribution in communities like those. Mashie's main intent seems to be to eliminate the natural consequences of that. But the biggest thing about all of those exclusive communities, even large ones with significant infrastructure is the work required to survive without modern specialisation, and that includes modern commercial structures. Mind numbing drudgery is one description I heard from an Amish kid who ran away to talk about it a decade later.

[mashman]

no, tax is illegal by some decree of a king in the 13th century. noone seems to take any notice...

also, coercion and duress are illegal. so too, is slavery, and i'm fairly sure theft.

I read that somewhere from a document back in 2000 and wondered if anyone had successfully made the challenge. I believe that there were cases of IRS agents in the US who decided not to pay tax, but never found any outcome. Quite possibly still in court, although they did say that they weren't legally obliged to pay tax. And who would know better eh.

BUT as a corporate person (not a living man), you have duties and obligations. it's all about that registration (berth) certificate and some other numbers they use to track you through their books. *ooooh conspiracy theoryyyyyy*.
no, it's actually a fucking fact.
a lot of it comes down to contract law - you contract with a "bank" to open an account through your name, this ALL goes through the reserve bank and IRD.
the IRD can track you monthly by the interest paid on any account, places who start with "ministry" or "department" (social development, justice etc) have fairly unlimited access to "your" bank account.
don't believe me? read the fine print which you signed in a corporate nature (corporate sign-nature= person's signature.) also, try getting your bank not to pay the interest on an account.
you don't own a bank account. the account is opened through the corporate name registered on a berth certificate. you just happen to have (some kind) of control over it. unless a ministry decides you should repay fines, or child support, or tax, or, or, or...

still a good fucking deal?
more on contracts - you sign an employment contract to further reduce your legal status, from a person, to an employee. now, you still DO NOT have an obligation to pay tax, but it's likely you will, you also (under the wages protection act) MUST BE PAID IN CASH (NOT a bank account/DC), of course, as an employee, you sign to forfeit these rights before you start your toil. and anything that goes through a bank account, is, as above, open to the tax man.
also under that act, no deductions (including tax) may be made from your pay without your consent, of course, the employment contract forms your consent.


but see, you're a living soul, and obviously this way inclined, so you naturally gravitate toward this kind of knowledge, many aren't and many don't care, but more are.

i think the more -ahem- elite, of us, have realised that sheep will be shup, and that, as usucka-anus above pointed out, it's so easy to dismiss you an i as tinfoil hatters, the lunatic fringe, conspiracy theorists.
and it's a really good media ploy, the government fucking love it, all it takes is one of us to stand up and call BS, and one of them to stand up and say "tinfoil hat" and that's the end of the argument, to the public's mind.
so there's no point in trying to make anyone elses life better, because they either will or wont, and, as you, if they're naturally inclined that way, they will, if they're not, fuck em.
so we head into the hills, with guns and tents, and, really, fuck what the corporate world does, unless they're going to come and get us, we could really care less what they do.

so it's not that we "do nothing" just that we post on internet forums /stand on soapboxes and people call us tinfoil hatters and everyone dismisses us. we're generally peaceable, so unlikely to stage riots or violent revolution. i guess we're resigned to the way things are, we spread the good word, and make things better for us and ours.

i just read a book from a (corporate slave) mate called "the outsiders" about the NZers who make an effort to get out of society. i'll post it to you if you want. it's got some good yarns in.

As you say, we sign up for it in some fashion or another and I guess our acceptance through not arguing the toss is taken as consent.

One of the reasons I don't want to seek office is as you mention. One tin foil hat and it's all over. However I'd much prefer each and every individual to make their own mind up as to what sort of collective society they'd like to live in. So if I ever get to the point where it's a possibility, I'll go and talk to the people and then they can have their servants do their bidding. Ahhhhh grandeur, how I crave it .

I don't particularly want to drop out though. Shit just won't change that way and as I've said before, no man is an island, especially if "they" decide that I'm not allowed to play by my own rules. That and I'd probably get the guilts .

Cheers for the offer... I'll get that book off of you someday, but I'm a hellish slow reader and have other things occupying my time at the moment.

[mashman]

Mashie - you do keep saying that no-one has tried your system but you are quite wrong about that. In fact we've talked about examples in earlier discussions but for some reason you forget.

The most recent and widely known examples are the hippie communes of the late 60s - early 70s. Their ethic was each person did what was needed for the benefit of all. No money needed - in fact they didn't have any money so that bit wasn't hard. Jerusalem in NZ (JK Baxter) was the most famous here.

The communes failed. Why? Because eventually some of the hippies noticed they were doing all the work while the others did nothing.

Apart from the hippies, the Pennsylvania Dutch - Amish and Mennonites, have successfully functioned outside our economic system for over 200 years. Check them out.

There are still tribal cultures in Africa and South America which take no part in the world's financial systems. They have no money (in the modern sense) and yet they survive. Barely.

I'm not wrong at all. You're selectively missing that I'm talking about an entire country, not isolated pockets of communities. 40 years of technological advancement will likely make a difference too and I highly doubt that the commune's of the 60's and 70's made use of the latest technology for their benefit. An entire country could.

Communes fail because they are surrounded by financially economic entities and had to interact with those financially economic entities. The moderately amusing thing about you saying that people weren't pulling their weight was the issue that stuffed the communes, is that they'd have come back to a financial economy that has exactly the same thing. As you know, as you have mentioned the 20 hour week before, there'd be more than enough of us to perform the functions that keep the country going. And if being petty by moaning and whining that there are people who aren't perceived as pulling their weight leads to the failure of the system that has been employed, then it was doomed to failure to start with. not everyone is required to work. Yet the more who do the better we'll be and if the alternative is to revert back to the financial system and people have voted it out, then I reckon that they'd understand the potential for "lazy" people to exist. Accept that it will happen and it won't come as such a surprise that people will decide that we'd be better off being valued as individuals.

Let's try it with a whole country and with technology and with an understanding of what we'd be walking in to etc... and it'd be an entirely different animal to the communes that you speak of.

Still waiting for that list too .

[mashman]

There's always going to be differences in individual contribution in communities like those. Mashie's main intent seems to be to eliminate the natural consequences of that. But the biggest thing about all of those exclusive communities, even large ones with significant infrastructure is the work required to survive without modern specialisation, and that includes modern commercial structures. Mind numbing drudgery is one description I heard from an Amish kid who ran away to talk about it a decade later.

And there's difference in individual contributions in our communities. Wildly differing ones and all valued by a perceived contribution that is measured in $. Why would that change? All levels of ability are required for a successful economy. It's quite hilarious that you seem to think that living without money means that we'd be heading into Amish territory. Why would we ditch the tech? Or the commercial structures for that matter? Or the modern specialisation? It's all there. All I'm saying is that we make proper use of it and use it to its potential and not to a budget limit. We have the people. We have the resources. Fuckloads of us have the will. So I fail to see, throughout all of your postings, why you're equating living without a financial system as sending us back to the stone age. That mind numbing drudgery isn't limited to financial less system ya know. What was the last "projection"... 63% (give or take) of Kiwi's aren't happy in their jobs. Mind numbing drudgery doesn't just vanish because you add a financial system. On the plus side you do make me laugh.

[Brian d marge]

Hippies ,drugs , fail

Amish , "freaks of nature who get up at sunrise" . win ( but still pay tax)

Stephen

[Akzle]

Hippies ,drugs , fail

Amish , "freaks of nature who get up at sunrise" . win ( but still pay tax)

Stephen

i did read somewhere that amish pay significantly less tax..., so to the krishnas (though i think they might be registered charity)

I read that somewhere from a document back in 2000 and wondered if anyone had successfully made the challenge. I believe that there were cases of IRS agents in the US who decided not to pay tax, but never found any outcome. Quite possibly still in court, although they did say that they weren't legally obliged to pay tax. And who would know better eh.

us is slightly different as their government was constitutionally formed. australia and NZ suffer a de-facto goverment that came about when the league of nations was re structured and NZ and australia got their own chair and carafe, rather than continuing as a colony of the uk.

the uk got their government from an historic monarchy, and started making democratic noises in about 1293 when the magna carta was forced on the then-king by the people. (i think this may be the get-out-of-tax document, but it's been a while since i've read up on it.)
fun fact: the magna carta is still in force in NZ today by the imperial laws application act. first in time is best at law, so any subsequent act that contravenes the magna carta can be safely ignored. (provided you can baffle cops and judges with bullshitery)

as far as case law: the "person" argument was presented and won at manukau in south auckland, that was a case v. the IRD (the guy stopped paying tax), so yes, i'd say there's precedent...
of course the stenographer was absent that morning, because having shit like that on record might give other people ideas about a free and better way of doing things.

[Ocean1]

And there's difference in individual contributions in our communities. Wildly differing ones and all valued by a perceived contribution that is measured in $. Why would that change? All levels of ability are required for a successful economy.

I guess one of the key differences in our beliefs is that I see a need for money in order for an economy to function and you don't. I see money as an essential gear in a control mechanism, and you see it as the direct cause of inequity and hardship.

Now what’s required to explain those differenced in view? A difference in the perception of what money represents, yes? I see money as representing work done or the promise of work to be done. You see it as an object of desire which causes people to behave in ways you don’t like.

Given that, I see the way new money is distributed into the system (the promise of work to be done) to be a viable control on the economy. You see it as some arsehole plucking more “cause of inequity” from thin air.

I’d like the way new money is distributed to change, to control things other than just inflation. You just want the whole monetary system scrapped.

We both believe our way would provide a better environment in which people would be able to enjoy more freedom in their choices of lifestyle.

You believe that removing money will effectively remove any constraints on people’s choices because they’ll be able to live comfortably even if they don’t contribute what’s actually wanted. I believe society’s better served by those who work hard and take risks to provide what’s actually wanted, and that the best way to allow them to do that is to refrain from penalising them for doing so.

Why would that change? All levels of ability are required for a successful economy. It's quite hilarious that you seem to think that living without money means that we'd be heading into Amish territory. Why would we ditch the tech? Or the commercial structures for that matter? Or the modern specialisation? It's all there.

It's not, you've removed that primary gear, you have no way of valuing product, you have no way of accumulating value, you have no way of storing it and therefore you have no way of investing it. And that, not the lack of technology is what requires the various sects to work non-stop in order to survive. And it amuses me that you figure that all it'll take to get your way is that everyone else needs to disbelieve centuries of history about how economies work and, ignoring the holes in your theories to have faith in your beliefs. Sound familliar?

It's also significant that you require everyone else to abandon their existing lifestyles, because otherwise your idea won't work. If it won't work on a small scale what makes you think it'll work on a larger one?

All I'm saying is that we make proper use of it and use it to its potential and not to a budget limit. We have the people. We have the resources. Fuckloads of us have the will.

Who says what constitutes "proper use"? 'Cause that's the issue, innit? Control. The existing arrangement has it’s faults, but it does allow people to decide what to do with their lives knowing pretty much how those decisions will pan out. With your utopia there aren't any negative consequences to your choice of contribution and how effectively you choose to pursue it. As long as it's deemed "proper use". On the other hand there's no positive consequences, either. The world would be full of scientists with no training and no laboratory, astronauts with no training and no spacecraft, artists with no training and no talent. Given no consequences everyone takes the easy path at least sometimes. Most take the easy path most of the time.

Speaking of artists with no talent, did you know that the French once decided that artists were unfairly discriminated against in that their income was dependant on them selling their art, a product the value of which was simply a matter of opinion, and some of them were starving. Their solution was for the government to pay for their work. What do you suppose happened next?

So I fail to see, throughout all of your postings, why you're equating living without a financial system as sending us back to the stone age.

Well, it’s your failure, hopefully you find something above to help you, there.

That mind numbing drudgery isn't limited to financial less system ya know. What was the last "projection"... 63% (give or take) of Kiwi's aren't happy in their jobs. Mind numbing drudgery doesn't just vanish because you add a financial system. On the plus side you do make me laugh.

Now why’s that? Has society let them down? Or did they make poor decisions that led to the circumstances they find themselves in? And why did they make those choices? Is it possible that they were told that they would be comfortably off even if they didn’t stay at school? Didn’t put in a few extra yards when work got busy? That they should feel free to take a day off whenever they felt the need?

I see nothing funny about that. Given a free hand I'd ask those that tell people such things to pay for the consequences of their beliefs.

Mind numbing drudgery is sometimes the lot of unlucky people, but mostly it’s the natural consequence of making poor choices. What do you suppose might be the consequences of encouraging the whole world to make poor choices?