The value of money has dropped by two thirds in 30 years

[mashman]

But you want to see everyone on the planet having the same standard of living?

Not overly sure how to answer that. We'll all have different standards of living. However I see no reason that people in poverty or who work like mad to eek out the basics shouldn't have equal rights to that "lifestyle" due to their effort not being deemed worthy of being rewarded similarly to someone who can do the bare minimum. It's unjust and makes a mockery of the mantra of hard work equalling reward.

Edit: What is the point of a financial system?

[jonbuoy]

Isn't that the same reason it won't work on a Country scale? People have different standards of living and different expectations? A company director might earn 10x the salary of the company cleaner- just as a rich western country like NZ might have a living standard 10x that of a small African nation.

[Ocean1]

I decided to cut it short and let the experts explain where the money came from before it becomes wages.

That's your revelation? Money's not real because it costs next to nothing to print?

C'mon, dude, surely you can figure the difference between the token and the value it represents.

I earn a wage, I know how "private" individuals (corporations apparently) "earn" money.

You got me, I have no idea what your talking about. What the fuck has "corporations apparently" got to do with wages?

And you obviously don't believe workers "earn" their wages. I'm not sure how you can bring yourself to soil your hands with your criminal employers stipend.

It does reveal the basis of your fetish regarding money, though. With no understanding of the ethical means whereby people improve their lot it must seem a very arbitrary world.


PS: Those fucking evel corporate researchers are at it again I see: http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/indu...ation-with-NYC

[oldrider]

Edit: What is the point of a financial system?

The financial system is nothing more or less than a means of distribution of goods and services between the producers and the consumers.

It is only faulty when unnecessary charges for it's operation and maintenance are added to the system for ill-gotten gain and personal control.

Control really means power and as such it is the rice bowl of the unscrupulous people that currently have it! The real 1%!

Like a savage dog with it's bone they will not relinquish it without a fight to the death!

They depend on our (the other 99%) ignorance and stupidity and use it to their advantage, actually we give it to them free gratis! ....

[jonbuoy]

The financial system is nothing more or less than a means of distribution of goods and services between the producers and the consumers.

It is only faulty when unnecessary charges for it's operation and maintenance are added to the system for ill-gotten gain and personal control.

Control really means power and as such it is the rice bowl of the unscrupulous people that currently have it! The real 1%!

Like a savage dog with it's bone they will not relinquish it without a fight to the death!

They depend on our (the other 99%) ignorance and stupidity and use it to their advantage, actually we give it to them free gratis! ....

Nicely put, but we are part of the global 1% even if we don´t like admitting it - we don´t want to give up our 1% of wealth to developing nations any more than the members of top 10 rich list want to give away their wealth to us.

[Ocean1]

we are part of the global 1% even if we don´t like admitting it.

[mashman]

That's your revelation? Money's not real because it costs next to nothing to print?

C'mon, dude, surely you can figure the difference between the token and the value it represents.

That and the damage that it does being unnecessary... you kinda gloss over that bit. It was more in response to you saying

As for where fiat money comes from, it depends on the country but it’s always controlled by the govt.

and that that is not the case... dats all. That money comes from somewhere before private individuals get their little mitts on it.

I do understand the repesentation of value and it's a stupid way of doing things. You don't agree, go figure.

You got me, I have no idea what your talking about. What the fuck has "corporations apparently" got to do with wages?

And you obviously don't believe workers "earn" their wages. I'm not sure how you can bring yourself to soil your hands with your criminal employers stipend.

It does reveal the basis of your fetish regarding money, though. With no understanding of the ethical means whereby people improve their lot it must seem a very arbitrary world.

PS: Those fucking evel corporate researchers are at it again I see: http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/indu...ation-with-NYC

Ask Akzle about the corporation thing, or failing that, use the internet and look up Legal Personality.

Not all people earn their wages as you're very fond of pointing out... so no, I don't believe that some workers earn their wages. I don't have much choice if I want to provide for my family given the current situation. Once that changes, I'll be much happier.

It doesn't reveal anything of the sort. It might do for you, but it's certainly not the perspective I have. Oh I get the ethical means, I've done things by the book, this is what shit costs, so therefore I've "earned" what I am due thing... but yes, on certain levels I do see the world as being quite arbitrary.

Perhaps the key part of that link was that they hard formed a partnership. Is that the norm across the board is it?

[Ocean1]

That and the damage that it does being unnecessary... you kinda gloss over that bit. It was more in response to you saying



and that that is not the case... dats all. That money comes from somewhere before private individuals get their little mitts on it.



I do understand the repesentation of value and it's a stupid way of doing things. You don't agree, go figure.

Of course money came from somewhere before private individuals got their mitts on it, their employers EARNED it.

I do understand the repesentation of value and it's a stupid way of doing things. You don't agree, go figure.

I don’t agree because the alternative is having farmers carting cows around to exchange for their paint, you obviously figure that’s a great idea.

Not all people earn their wages as you're very fond of pointing out... so no, I don't believe that some workers earn their wages. I don't have much choice if I want to provide for my family given the current situation. Once that changes, I'll be much happier.

Of course not everyone earns their wages, there’s plenty that fuck around on kiwibiker all day and produce fuck all of marketable value. There’s also plenty that produce more than they’re paid to, but the rationale is still valid, you SHOULD aspire to provide your market/employer with product/work equal to the cash value he’s paying you, and they/he SHOULD reimburse you accordingly.

Just because that’s often not the case doesn’t come anywhere near reason enough to abandon a process in favour of not having one at all, an option that’s never worked in any civilisation in recorded history.

It doesn't reveal anything of the sort. It might do for you, but it's certainly not the perspective I have. Oh I get the ethical means, I've done things by the book, this is what shit costs, so therefore I've "earned" what I am due thing... but yes, on certain levels I do see the world as being quite arbitrary.

If, as seems likely from the above you genuinely can’t see the link between productive performance and the deserved, quantifiable and agreed rewards for those efforts by those who benefit from them then I’m not surprised you see the world as quite arbitrary.

As I’ve said before; paying everyone the same based on the simplistic notion that they all deserve the same no matter how much they produce benefits only those who aren’t actually producing anything worth what they expect in payment. And even if that were a sterling idea simply banning the use of money is not a particularly effective way of doing it.

[mashman]

Of course money came from somewhere before private individuals got their mitts on it, their employers EARNED it.

And before that? ad infinitum. The source of the money that is.

I don’t agree because the alternative is having farmers carting cows around to exchange for their paint, you obviously figure that’s a great idea.

So ditch the value and work on the basis that, this cow is needed somewhere, I shall take it there. Along with, I need veges, good job the vege guy is doing the same thing that I am with my cow. So not obviously at all. Do what you need to do and you'll get what you need/want to have because everyone else is producing something irrespective of value.

Of course not everyone earns their wages, there’s plenty that fuck around on kiwibiker all day and produce fuck all of marketable value. There’s also plenty that produce more than they’re paid to, but the rationale is still valid, you SHOULD aspire to provide your market/employer with product/work equal to the cash value he’s paying you, and they/he SHOULD reimburse you accordingly.

Just because that’s often not the case doesn’t come anywhere near reason enough to abandon a process in favour of not having one at all, an option that’s never worked in any civilisation in recorded history.

Marketable value does not equate to useful and required "product" to me. Yes that's not true across the board. However that useless "product" is a waste of resources imho.

That's because it has never been tried at a country level in the past 2000+ years. Things have changed since, including us, I believe it will work and will work by far better than a financial system could ever dream of achieving.

If, as seems likely from the above you genuinely can’t see the link between productive performance and the deserved, quantifiable and agreed rewards for those efforts by those who benefit from them then I’m not surprised you see the world as quite arbitrary.

As I’ve said before; paying everyone the same based on the simplistic notion that they all deserve the same no matter how much they produce benefits only those who aren’t actually producing anything worth what they expect in payment. And even if that were a sterling idea simply banning the use of money is not a particularly effective way of doing it.

Ahhh yes, you are the captain of your destiny and rely upon noone. The system is false as it is manipulated at every turn. It is not a self sustaining mechanism, it does not produce that which is required due to budget constraint. It does not value what it decides not to value. To that end it treats people unfairly, because irrespective of effort no binman could earn as much as me, even though their job is much more important than mine. The value system is fucked and the financial system is the mechanism used. Kill the mechanism and redefine that which is of value.

Noone will be getting paid the same, because noone will be getting paid at all. Currently the financial system supports those who don't work... under the guise of them being an economic requirement. Nothing will change other than they may get access to goods/services that you wouldn't want them to. Which again they already do... we call it crime. They're going to get it anyway, why bother fighting them for it? If all that tiny minority are after is stuff, fuck it, they can have it as there's plenty more stuff to go around. I reckon that they'd be happy to chukc in 4 hours a day given the right incentive . Banning money, well, removing it entirely as the mechanism of value for the local economy, is about as effective as you're ever going to get.

[mashman]

The financial system WAS nothing more or less than a means of distribution of goods and services between the producers and the consumers.

It is COMPLETELY faulty AND unnecessary AS charges for it's operation and maintenance are added to the system for ill-gotten gain and personal control.

Control really means power and as such it is the rice bowl of the unscrupulous people that currently have it! The real 1%!

Like a savage dog with it's bone they will not relinquish it without a fight to the death!

They depend on our (the other 99%) ignorance and stupidity and use it to their advantage, actually we give it to them free gratis! ....

Just a couple of changes . I'd like to remove their toys to give us all a shot at whatever, at whatever age we decide we know what we'd like to have a shot at.

[mashman]

Nicely put, but we are part of the global 1% even if we don´t like admitting it - we don´t want to give up our 1% of wealth to developing nations any more than the members of top 10 rich list want to give away their wealth to us.

I don't mind admitting it if I am in that 1%, but if I am then it's a sad reflection on the country that it values my all but pointless effort over that of a Nurse or Binman or Sewerage worker etc... You may not want to give up your position, but with any luck the majority of NZ might. I'd like to know... and if not, then hope it turns out like the attitudes towards gay people in that that perception changes over time and we finally get there.

[jonbuoy]

I don't mind admitting it if I am in that 1%, but if I am then it's a sad reflection on the country that it values my all but pointless effort over that of a Nurse or Binman or Sewerage worker etc... You may not want to give up your position, but with any luck the majority of NZ might. I'd like to know... and if not, then hope it turns out like the attitudes towards gay people in that that perception changes over time and we finally get there.

Not sure what your saying - that you earn less than a binman, nurse or sewerage worker? (I always thought they were reasonably well paid jobs). The job you have has the same stigma as being gay?? Your a stay at home dad?

[Ocean1]

And before that? ad infinitum. The source of the money that is.

The reserve bank. Like I said, the Govt. What’s your point?

So ditch the value and work on the basis that, this cow is needed somewhere, I shall take it there. Along with, I need veges, good job the vege guy is doing the same thing that I am with my cow. So not obviously at all. Do what you need to do and you'll get what you need/want to have because everyone else is producing something irrespective of value.

And you genuinely believe this is a viable option?
Fuck, the chasms you’re prepared to paper over so that a few minor holes in a functional existing system get plugged is amazing.

Marketable value does not equate to useful and required "product" to me. Yes that's not true across the board. However that useless "product" is a waste of resources imho.

What, some shit’s no worth the asking price? Fuck me I had no idea that could ever happen. Nonetheless, If you should find yourself in the extraordinary position of being faced with demands for prices you feel aren’t representative of the value in any given product then I suggest that you refrain from buying that shit. In fact, now that I think of it I’ve had occasion before now myself to decline to pay for shit I couldn’t afford. And on further in depth investigation I now discover it’s a phenomena facing perfectly normal people every day. Fuck knows how we all survive.

Of course, we could just blame money for this horrible misunderstanding and ban that shit altogether.

That's because it has never been tried at a country level in the past 2000+ years. Things have changed since, including us, I believe it will work and will work by far better than a financial system could ever dream of achieving.

It has been tried before. You just haven’t heard about it because the invention of exchange tokens falls on the level of civilisation somewhere between the use of antelope leg bones to smack dinner about the head and the development of a coherent written history. It’s one of the first conceptual tools civilisations develop. To date, all of them.

Ahhh yes, you are the captain of your destiny and rely upon noone. The system is false as it is manipulated at every turn. It is not a self sustaining mechanism, it does not produce that which is required due to budget constraint. It does not value what it decides not to value. To that end it treats people unfairly, because irrespective of effort no binman could earn as much as me, even though their job is much more important than mine. The value system is fucked and the financial system is the mechanism used. Kill the mechanism and redefine that which is of value.

If economic machinery fails it’s ALWAYS because the machine isn’t programed to produce stable negative feedback outputs. Yes, we have numerous instances of people and commercial and state entities dipping their fingers in the till. That’s no reason to abandon any attempt at control altogether, (and yes failing to have a viable financial system would absolutely guarantee failure) the machine simply requires editing to ensure that public spending returns commensurate value to the public. You’re dangerously close to pushing me onto my pet rant re monopolies, here.

As for you dislike of budget constraints? My wife agrees. Both of you can suck it up. It’s called living within your means.

Ah, and as for who decided what’s of value? That’s the dude that’s paying for it. With the money he earned expressly for that purpose. It’s not you.

Noone will be getting paid the same, because noone will be getting paid at all. Currently the financial system supports those who don't work... under the guise of them being an economic requirement. Nothing will change other than they may get access to goods/services that you wouldn't want them to. Which again they already do... we call it crime. They're going to get it anyway, why bother fighting them for it? If all that tiny minority are after is stuff, fuck it, they can have it as there's plenty more stuff to go around. I reckon that they'd be happy to chukc in 4 hours a day given the right incentive . Banning money, well, removing it entirely as the mechanism of value for the local economy, is about as effective as you're ever going to get.

Sure. If your objective is complete and immediate economic collapse. That, and pushing civilisation back to the level of that antelope thigh bone.

[Ocean1]

Oh, and this:

Perhaps the key part of that link was that they hard formed a partnership. Is that the norm across the board is it?

I supply tech consult services to developers accessing public grants. From that background I can assure you that publicly funded research is colaberative far more often than otherwise.

So yes, where it's public money that absolutely is the norm.


NEXT BOGYMAN!

[mashman]

Not sure what your saying - that you earn less than a binman, nurse or sewerage worker? (I always thought they were reasonably well paid jobs). The job you have has the same stigma as being gay?? Your a stay at home dad?

... Their jobs aren't in comparison to mine. No, I'm not a stay at home dad, although I wish I could be.