The value of money has dropped by two thirds in 30 years

[mashman]

What's difficult to grasp is how anyone with the cognitive horsepower to remember to breath could ever come to believe a civilisation could function without the most basic machinery to manage demand and supply.

Bazzar.

Fortunately breathing is an involuntary action. It will function with the most basic machinery to manage demand and supply. nothing functions properly without logistics.

Don't you mean bazaar.

I'll use cash. The hippies that haven't bothered fucking off to Kansas as suggested will have starved inside a month, leaving the place substantially no worse off. And a fucking sight more effectively supplied with both cows and paint.

You won't be able to use cash in a financially free country because cash will mean fuck all... other than a poor substitute as toilet paper that is and you'll be able to get smoother from the shop for free. best thing about hippies is that they'll pitch in for the greater good instead of expecting to get something in return. A much more impressive breed of human being entirely.

I'm staying here, in the real world. If you want to fuck off to paradise where nobody uses money then don't bother coming back, with or without your pasport unless your wallet's full of the price of your hospital bill.

Not at all, I want NZ for the "testing" ground. You may want to fuck it up with your financial system, but I'd rather NZ and the people had a higher standard of, well, everything. Not hard without a financial system putting the stoppers on anything that it decides is of no value to the marketplace and ignoring the needs of the people. It may not be paradise, but it'd be a fucksite better than what we have... and it won't push NZers away just because they've upped and fucked off chasing a brighter future.

Yeah, if you're not bloody sick and your'e eating the lunch I paid for I'm as oppressive as all fuck.

TANSTAFL.

Outside of that I'm a pussycat.

That's not very nice given that the majority of those unemployed can't help being in that position... and all because the market that you revere so can't afford them, even though they can pluck money out of thin air. Ahhhhhhh the financial system. Stuffing things up for millenia whilst fooling people that it's really helping and that there's no other choice. (insert sheep sound here).

[mashman]

So your partly against the current system because you feel bad that you contribute less than a nurse to society but take more from it in monetary value?

bwaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaa. Here's an extract from a response to one of your posts on Tuesday:

Why eh. Not been asked that before, just usually labelled and that's that. Essentially I see where it's going to lead. It's everything from someone working 16 hours a day in 2 jobs and still needing assistance to make ends meet, to teachers not getting paid properly, to people harming others in the pursuit of a few $, to people warring and killing over resources for profit, to silo'd research disguised as being done for the common good, to a serious waste of resources, to poverty in general, to having enough for all but only if you have $ (where logistics solve that), to the mistrust of conspiracy, to relationships being soured by financial concerns, to teens having kids for cash, to country's being thrown into recession, to education/healthcare to a budget, to the realisation that where someone has lots someone else has to have none, to Chch still needing to be started with a vengeance, to if I want to grow my own tobacco and give it away I shouldn't face jail for wanting to share, to not being truly prepared for any disaster, to burying the future of coming generations in debt, to raping the earth for profit, to the realisation that money really isn't solving the big issues of the day and that I should actually give a shit about that etc... to where I see our generation and future generations ending up.

I have underlined the parts that highlight my reasons for wanting rid of the financial system. You can also add the one you've just posted to it should you wish, but it is covered in there, just not in terms that you accept it would seem.

[Ocean1]

Fortunately breathing is an involuntary action. It will function with the most basic machinery to manage demand and supply.

Which is about all that’ll function without the basic unit that enables the demand and supply cycle.

Don't you mean bazaar.

You’re the expert.

You won't be able to use cash in a financially free country because cash will mean fuck all... other than a poor substitute as toilet paper that is and you'll be able to get smoother from the shop for free. best thing about hippies is that they'll pitch in for the greater good instead of expecting to get something in return. A much more impressive breed of human being entirely.

Y’know the very first thing your brave new hippies will invent?

Money.

Me? I won’t give a fuck, I’m staying here, in the real, functioning world.

Not at all, I want NZ for the "testing" ground. You may want to fuck it up with your financial system, but I'd rather NZ and the people had a higher standard of, well, everything. Not hard without a financial system putting the stoppers on anything that it decides is of no value to the marketplace and ignoring the needs of the people. It may not be paradise, but it'd be a fucksite better than what we have... and it won't push NZers away just because they've upped and fucked off chasing a brighter future.

You’re not listening, you can’t have NZ. The local dole bludgers require that it remain capable of supporting them, and that means if not actually supporting the productive sector then at least not bludgening it into extinction. We’re having enough trouble with that without you fucking it up altogether.

Not, as I’ve already suggested, that there’s the slightest chance of you attracting a very dim boy Friday let alone the numerical support required to make, say, the Ekatahuna congregation bi-annual broadsheet.

That's not very nice given that the majority of those unemployed can't help being in that position... and all because the market that you revere so can't afford them, even though they can pluck money out of thin air. Ahhhhhhh the financial system. Stuffing things up for millenia whilst fooling people that it's really helping and that there's no other choice. (insert sheep sound here).

This is the bit where I require you to substantiate the same unmitigated reeking waffle regarding whose fault it might be that dole bludgers aren’t earning their keep you’ve trundled out countless times before, and the very very tired conspiracy theory about the evel world bank, in collusion with the federal reserve and dem fuckers in that shiney big building up town that you owe money to having tricked us into paying them for nothing, and you reply with some utterly unrelated quote from someone associated with recycling tofu.

Although I have to admit that through the completely random generation of massive quantities of largely pointless words you’ve demonstrated that a single monkey typing for long enough can indeed write, if not the full works of Shakespeare then at least the single fact that we can’t afford dole bludgers.

Congratulations.

[jonbuoy]

bwaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaa. Here's an extract from a response to one of your posts on Tuesday:



I have underlined the parts that highlight my reasons for wanting rid of the financial system. You can also add the one you've just posted to it should you wish, but it is covered in there, just not in terms that you accept it would seem.

I think its a fair question to ask - your very much against large salaries for people who you perceive to contribute very little to society and your very politically motivated so I think its fair to ask where you sit yourself in this scenario. Do you think your monetary return for your contribution to society/your workplace is over or under valued?

[mashman]

Which is about all that’ll function without the basic unit that enables the demand and supply cycle.

You’re the expert.

What unit is that? The resource? The people? noooooo, lemme have a real guess at that. Money right? As I'm the expert I say that money is no a prerequisite for things getting done. Unpaid volunteers are proof of that.

Y’know the very first thing your brave new hippies will invent?

Money.

Me? I won’t give a fuck, I’m staying here, in the real, functioning world.

No they won't. They won't be hippies either. And no problem with the amount of fuck given, you can sit and fester in your dazed and bemused state as the world goes whistling by without a hitch and not a whiff of money to be seen. You will be looked after, probably considered a bludger in some circles, but you will be looked after and you will receive your free breakfast, lunch and dinner.

You’re not listening, you can’t have NZ. The local dole bludgers require that it remain capable of supporting them, and that means if not actually supporting the productive sector then at least not bludgening it into extinction. We’re having enough trouble with that without you fucking it up altogether.

Not, as I’ve already suggested, that there’s the slightest chance of you attracting a very dim boy Friday let alone the numerical support required to make, say, the Ekatahuna congregation bi-annual broadsheet.

As I've said repeatedly, oh irony re:listening, it's not up to just you or me. Such 2 dimensional thinking. Of course we're having problems. We're relying on a financial system to solve a problem that a financial system can't handle... and that that financial system has created. That's unemployment just in case you hadn't guessed.

I'd like to put that to the test.

This is the bit where I require you to substantiate the same unmitigated reeking waffle regarding whose fault it might be that dole bludgers aren’t earning their keep you’ve trundled out countless times before, and the very very tired conspiracy theory about the evel world bank, in collusion with the federal reserve and dem fuckers in that shiney big building up town that you owe money to having tricked us into paying them for nothing, and you reply with some utterly unrelated quote from someone associated with recycling tofu.

Although I have to admit that through the completely random generation of massive quantities of largely pointless words you’ve demonstrated that a single monkey typing for long enough can indeed write, if not the full works of Shakespeare then at least the single fact that we can’t afford dole bludgers.

Congratulations.

Is unemployment higher or lower than it was before the GFC? Yes. Why? Just because you choose to ignore that which prominent economists, amongst other supposed professionals, have been saying for, at least, the last 5 years or so doesn't make it a conspiracy. And you say you live in the real world. A claim I find amusing given that inflation rises and falls, interest rate rises and falls are all accompanied by unemployment fluctuations. Why so those unemployment numbers fluctuate? BECAUSE THERE IS OR ISN'T ENOUGH MONEY AVAILABLE AT THE TIME, FACT! Ya know that shit they pluck out of thin air as and when they feel like it.

it ain't easy for us monkeys to communicate simple concepts to single eye single cell organisms, especially when they expect things to be complicated or they just won't work. I'm surprised that you have the dextrous ability to thump keys on a keyboard in order to form words, given that you're obviously not far enough up the evolutionary ladder to have surpassed scribing on walls with rocks.

Congratulations

[mashman]

I think its a fair question to ask - your very much against large salaries for people who you perceive to contribute very little to society and your very politically motivated so I think its fair to ask where you sit yourself in this scenario. Do you think your monetary return for your contribution to society/your workplace is over or under valued?

It was and I've answered it. It's not a question with a yes or no answer. We can do better without a financial system, end of. Oddly enough, the amount of money that anyone has is really low on my list of reasons to get rid of the useless thing. Politics gets in the way and I am perceived as being political because of that. Do it right or don't fuckin bother is the short answer. After that, I have no choice but to be perceived as being political.

I see you've changed your question. Society and my workplace are 2 entirely different places. My monetary concern goes as far as, do my family have enough money to do what they'd like to do. When the answer is no, I do something about it. My job could potentially put people out of work as it is used to make businesses more efficient. My job does treat human being for illnesses. My job does not keep the streets clean. My job does not result in water treatment. However my job and my skills are valued by the marketplace at a higher $ rate than that of binmen, nurses and sewerage workers. It's not about how much I earn, that is not on the radar in regards to my "dislike" of the financial system.

[jonbuoy]

It was and I've answered it. It's not a question with a yes or no answer. We can do better without a financial system, end of. Oddly enough, the amount of money that anyone has is really low on my list of reasons to get rid of the useless thing. Politics gets in the way and I am perceived as being political because of that. Do it right or don't fuckin bother is the short answer. After that, I have no choice but to be perceived as being political.

I see you've changed your question. Society and my workplace are 2 entirely different places. My monetary concern goes as far as, do my family have enough money to do what they'd like to do. When the answer is no, I do something about it. My job could potentially put people out of work as it is used to make businesses more efficient. My job does treat human being for illnesses. My job does not keep the streets clean. My job does not result in water treatment. However my job and my skills are valued by the marketplace at a higher $ rate than that of binmen, nurses and sewerage workers. It's not about how much I earn, that is not on the radar in regards to my "dislike" of the financial system.

So for you personally the current system works? If you were just looking at your own finances not anyone else's? If you get short of money you do something about it. I disagree how much you personally earn is extremely important when discussing the value of money.

[mashman]

So for you personally the current system works? If you were just looking at your own finances not anyone else's? If you get short of money you do something about it. I disagree how much you personally earn is extremely important when discussing the value of money.

I am not an island. I rely on others. The financial system does not work on that basis for me personally. I have a family to provide for and I meet their needs. Too many of those needs are financial. You can disagree all you like, but how much I earn is irrelevant when discussing removing the financial system. After all, what I earn now will be worth nothing to me personally.

[jonbuoy]

I am not an island. I rely on others. The financial system does not work on that basis for me personally. I have a family to provide for and I meet their needs. Too many of those needs are financial. You can disagree all you like, but how much I earn is irrelevant when discussing removing the financial system. After all, what I earn now will be worth nothing to me personally.

What do mean rely on others? For financial aid?

[mashman]

What do mean rely on others? For financial aid?

Nope. I rely on binmen to keep the streets clean. I rely on nurses to patch me up. I rely on sewerage workers to get rid of my shit without it giving me an impromptu b-day experience etc...

[jonbuoy]

Nope. I rely on binmen to keep the streets clean. I rely on nurses to patch me up. I rely on sewerage workers to get rid of my shit without it giving me an impromptu b-day experience etc...

So how does the financial system not work for you? Rubbish gets collected, streets get cleaned, your health is looked after - you earn enough to have a comfortable life run a car/bike. So the crux is that you want more of a slice? What would change in your life if you went for a money-less system? Would you not go to work? Would you have a better bike/car/house? More food? Just trying to understand what you think the money less system would mean to someone like yourself who is "OK" in the current system?

[mashman]

So how does the financial system not work for you? Rubbish gets collected, streets get cleaned, your health is looked after - you earn enough to have a comfortable life run a car/bike. So the crux is that you want more of a slice? What would change in your life if you went for a money-less system? Would you not go to work? Would you have a better bike/car/house? More food? Just trying to understand what you think the money less system would mean to someone like yourself who is "OK" in the current system?

The financial system doesn't work for me on the basis that it does more damage than good and sometimes that means people pay with their lives and livelihoods.

I want no more of a slice.

Everything would change in my life, other than who I am. I wouldn't have to weigh up getting the car fixed against food/activities for the kids. My kids will have access to a higher standard of education/healthcare etc... live in a world with less crime... I may well stay in my job and perhaps we'd start doing things for the client instead of earning money for our business. I may retrain as something entirely different without having to worry that my family will suffer financially because I decided to do something different. The list of choices would almost be endless.

As for what it might mean for someone else in a similar position to me. No doubt they'd be as happy as a pig in shit to have my lifestyle and would be happy not to lose it. The ironic thing being that they wouldn't actually lose that lifestyle. They may indeed see the benefits of a financially free NZ and happily accept that too. Dunno. But I'd like to find out coz the benefits by far outweigh the negatives.

[jonbuoy]

You would like to think that people would treat each other differently if you take away the money but I´m not so sure. I assume you still have some sort of government in a moneyless system? At least someone in charge of distributing the goods/services making sure hospitals had enough food/medicines? Making sure the factories had enough raw materials and workers? This would be even more open to corruption than it is now - you would be expected to "work" provide a service in exchange for whatever the people in control deemed fit - they would decide what food you had - when you got a new car. How else could it work? It wont change human nature - you will still have murderers, rapists, thugs seeking control of others - they were there before money existed after all. It wont change human nature.

[Ocean1]

What unit is that? The resource? The people? noooooo, lemme have a real guess at that. Money right? As I'm the expert I say that money is no a prerequisite for things getting done. Unpaid volunteers are proof of that.

I don’t get paid for my recreational activities either. What’s your point?

No they won't

Will too.

As I've said repeatedly, oh irony re:listening, it's not up to just you or me. Such 2 dimensional thinking. Of course we're having problems. We're relying on a financial system to solve a problem that a financial system can't handle... and that that financial system has created. That's unemployment just in case you hadn't guessed.

I'd like to put that to the test.

We sometimes have problems with flooding also. We could ban water at the same time. And with precicely the same justification.

Test away. Send us your prospectus when you've got it hammered out, eh?

Is unemployment higher or lower than it was before the GFC? Yes.

Whadayamean yes? Unemployment through the last three years has been about 7%. A swift google tells me that’s 0.5% higher than its averaged since the mid eighties.

Why

Because successive governments have failed to foster the companies that generate jobs.

Just because you choose to ignore that which prominent economists, amongst other supposed professionals, have been saying for, at least, the last 5 years or so doesn't make it a conspiracy

And these multitudes of respected economists have been advocating the abolition of money, have they?

And you say you live in the real world. A claim I find amusing given that inflation rises and falls, interest rate rises and falls are all accompanied by unemployment fluctuations. Why so those unemployment numbers fluctuate? BECAUSE THERE IS OR ISN'T ENOUGH MONEY AVAILABLE AT THE TIME, FACT!

Perfectly correct. When times get hard employers can’t afford to carry quite the same number of staff. Of course, if a shortage of money causes more unemployment then eliminating money altogether will fix that problem immediately.

Ya know that shit they pluck out of thin air as and when they feel like it

That they don’t do. They fuck with the quantity of cash in circulation, certainly, in an attempt to mitigate the effects of a recession. Whether that’s wise or not I’m not quite sure. I know it effectively devalues savings, and I figure discouraging saving is a bad move.

What that specifically doesn’t mean is that someone other than you is creaming it by the simple expediency of printing money whereas you, for example aren’t.

On the other hand, if the reserve bank hadn’t been as open handed wrt banks use of that money for mortgages we’d probably have a lot fewer people owning their own home. Still, I could wish they’d made more of those loans available to business at somewhere near as friendly a rate, maybe some of those dole bludgers would still be employed, eh?

it ain't easy for us monkeys to communicate simple concepts to single eye single cell organisms, especially when they expect things to be complicated or they just won't work. I'm surprised that you have the dextrous ability to thump keys on a keyboard in order to form words, given that you're obviously not far enough up the evolutionary ladder to have surpassed scribing on walls with rocks.

Congratulations

Cheers. It's taken me fucking ages to compile this shit from my slate.

[mashman]

You would like to think that people would treat each other differently if you take away the money but I´m not so sure. I assume you still have some sort of government in a moneyless system? At least someone in charge of distributing the goods/services making sure hospitals had enough food/medicines? Making sure the factories had enough raw materials and workers? This would be even more open to corruption than it is now - you would be expected to "work" provide a service in exchange for whatever the people in control deemed fit - they would decide what food you had - when you got a new car. How else could it work? It wont change human nature - you will still have murderers, rapists, thugs seeking control of others - they were there before money existed after all. It wont change human nature.

I think it'll change a lot of our priorities and there'll be less reasons for fucking someone over or causing household stress etc... So yeah, I think attitudes will change towards each other quite a lot. Although there'll still be people that we don't get on with, people will still fuck other people's missuses, people will still murder and rape, however ugly, bald, fat rich men probably won't end up marrying supermodels etc... in essence, everything that is non-financially related will stay relatively similar.

Yup there will still be a govt, not necessarily in charge, but certainly in charge in regards to logistics and facilitating communication between "councils". We'll still need medicine, hospitals, doctors, raw materials, workers etc... Control, as you put it, will be at "council" level i.e. the community needs X, can we find it in the country, talk to govt, do we need to provide it locally, just do it. Food will still be produced, why would we need to have a set menu? In regards to cars, yup, someone might want a really nice car. They're either going to have to get the fuck over it, or go on the waiting list like everyone else. No doubt there will be some form of "system" put in place to deal with that, potentially linked to what you had before we ended the financial system, who knows. Human nature is a bad joke. Circumstance is everything in regards to our reactions to situations and if you've ever heard of or have done anything that may be considered being out of character, then haven't you gone against your human nature? Without money people's motives and motivations will probably change. Certainly the generation that grows up without the concept of a financial system will reap the full benefits... or something like that.