The value of money has dropped by two thirds in 30 years

[puddytat]

As if we didnt have an inkling....
http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/04/05...ering-network/

[blue rider]

and the IMF issues dire warnings

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3022420.html

[mashman]

As if we didnt have an inkling....
http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/04/05...ering-network/

heh... and then they lend that money out 9 times over. Why would they ask where it comes from. wonder if anything will be done? or will money protect the money men?

and the IMF issues dire warnings

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3022420.html

Only 900 million. Lazy bastards should have gotten off of their arses and gotten better jobs

[Ocean1]

protecting human life is more important than protecting an economy that doesn't give a shit about human life. In the meantime we'll go on a wasting the greatest era of mankind to date and we'll keep on pretending that the free market economy is the best way to manage resources. So no, I don't particularly like it the way it is and I'm pretty damned sure I'm not alone in that.

It don't matter how easy modern life makes things, there's still under-performers that don't understand why they don't get paid as much as they might like. You're not required to like that,nor even understand it. Which, on the face of it is most fortunate, because there's fuck all chance to be honest.

The real world root cause of your percieved problem part #1 is that the 3rd world doesn't produce enough value to manage a 1st world lifestyle. Root cause part #2 is that there are people in 1st world countries producing 3rd world efforts and expecting a 1st world lifestyle, which sorta fucks any chance of the 1st world producing the sort of surplusses likely to lead to much in the way of charity for that 3rd world.

If'n you want to fix the apparent travesty of human justice entailed in this huge disparity of lifestyles then get the 3rd world educated and into the first world where their lifestyles can match their efforts and get the 1st world bludgers exported to the 3rd world where their expectations can be recallibrated to something more appropriate for someone unable to provide anthing like the value required to live ain the 1st world.

[Genestho]

who the fuck WANTS a mortgage? Most want to own a property and the way the system is structured the only way to do that is via a mortgage. The mortgage is the down side, the trial of fire so to speak

Well doesn't equity beat giving your money to a landlord? Rent money is dead money - you're paying some-one else's mortgage or retirement plan, off! Sound clever? A Mortgage is money in the bank if you pay the bills and make good decisions.



Just because a house you might want to own is 600k doesn't mean housing is hard to get into. An average priced home has always been out of reach for the "first home buyer" They're different levels. Once you're in the market, dollar value becomes irrelevant because it all becomes relative.

This just means you start at the bottom just like most first home owners used to and you might have to move somewhere slightly undesirable or, do hard work on the first one, then trade up in the equity in a busy market, or sit still in a stagnant market until you've paid the Mortgage as soon as you can and that can happen rather quickly, as long as you don't over extend yourself.

It's truly a no brainer...

[mashman]

It don't matter how easy modern life makes things, there's still under-performers that don't understand why they don't get paid as much as they might like. You're not required to like that,nor even understand it. Which, on the face of it is most fortunate, because there's fuck all chance to be honest.

The real world root cause of your percieved problem part #1 is that the 3rd world doesn't produce enough value to manage a 1st world lifestyle. Root cause part #2 is that there are people in 1st world countries producing 3rd world efforts and expecting a 1st world lifestyle, which sorta fucks any chance of the 1st world producing the sort of surplusses likely to lead to much in the way of charity for that 3rd world.

If'n you want to fix the apparent travesty of human justice entailed in this huge disparity of lifestyles then get the 3rd world educated and into the first world where their lifestyles can match their efforts and get the 1st world bludgers exported to the 3rd world where their expectations can be recallibrated to something more appropriate for someone unable to provide anthing like the value required to live ain the 1st world.

You speak of performance related pay as if it is lore and seems to be equating under performance to low pay? Either way, as I suspect you know, there's much more to it than that.

... the real world root cause in money! FACT! Easy as bro, next. The funny thing is, it doesn't matter where you are in the world you should have access to the best that money can and can't buy, irrespective of whether you're going to make use of it or not. You want the best out of people? Then make everything available to all of them without conditions attached (that includes not having to fight to "earn" it as you might say). Otherwise you're just blowing hot air and waiting for people to finally know what they want to do and in the meantime let them eat cake. Hardly surprising some will seek the easy way out and lie and cheat their way to the top of their respective trees. So you end up with a lack of vision and ability at the top of various organisations. If Apple didn't have iShit, it wouldn't be the monster it is today irrespective of who'd be running the place.

It's a damned sight easier to let the lazy be lazy (until they're ready), give them what they need and be done with it. Us none lazy carry them without worrying being the social nuisance that they're portrayed to be i.e. a fuckload less crime, nearly none in fact. Put it this way, irrespective of my system or your system being in place, those people will still exist... only your system spends valuable resources that could be used for more productive pursuits chasing and jailing these people, mine doesn't, it accepts that they're there and leaves them to Darwin or waits for them to be ready to apply themselves or educated them that they'll end up with your system if they don't make some form of effort. Your system requires everyone to be doing something to be valued, mine requires as many people as are needed to do a valuable job and likely nowhere near everybody needing to be in work. So job sharing, much shorter working weeks, working from home, working pretty much when you decide to as long as you do that job etc... all being very doable in my system, where yours needs to wait for the money (infinite resource) to become available. Tis a no brainer, butcha need a brain to be able to comprehend the benefits.

[Ocean1]

You speak of performance related pay as if it is lore and seems to be equating under performance to low pay? Either way, as I suspect you know, there's much more to it than that.

There's occasionally more to what you get paid than what you earn, yes. But it's far more common that performance defines what you're paid.

If you don't agree with your employer's evaluation of your worth then you can always go looking for an employer that agress with you.

It's a damned sight easier to let the lazy be lazy (until they're ready), give them what they need and be done with it.

Wrong, it's a damned sight easier to let them starve, most of 'em don't take any more subtle critique of their value seriously.

[misterO]

Houses are so expensive nowadays you practically need to take out a mortgage to buy one!

[mashman]

There's occasionally more to what you get paid than what you earn, yes. But it's far more common that performance defines what you're paid.

If you don't agree with your employer's evaluation of your worth then you can always go looking for an employer that agress with you.

I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, but it seems to happen less at the bottom (where the real work gets done) than it does when you start adding "supervisor" titles into the mix. You may be one of those good employers who "reward" their shining stars, but from my experience good employers are few and far between... and I've been in a fair number of jobs and have noted the difference.

I guess that's why 63%, I think it was, of Kiwi's are on the lookout for better jobs and they can't all be that bad at their jobs.

Wrong, it's a damned sight easier to let them starve, most of 'em don't take any more subtle critique of their value seriously.

We've been down that road before eh... they won't go quietly into the night and to hell with those who get in their way right? I'd hardly call that easier. Most of 'em likely don't respect the person making the critique and I can't say I blame them, erspercially when it's some overpaid less than useless moron that gets on well with their boss and gets the credit for the teams efforts. Even if you could shoot everyone that wasn't of "value", how are you going to handle the associated economic fallout?

[Ocean1]

I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, but it seems to happen less at the bottom (where the real work gets done) than it does when you start adding "supervisor" titles into the mix. You may be one of those good employers who "reward" their shining stars, but from my experience good employers are few and far between... and I've been in a fair number of jobs and have noted the difference.

I guess that's why 63%, I think it was, of Kiwi's are on the lookout for better jobs and they can't all be that bad at their jobs.

I'm surprised it's that low. What also surprises me is the number who don't have the courage of their convictions to start their own business and really take responsibility for their productivity. I've seen a few try, and fall flat on their face against the sheer workload required to match their previous paycheques. I've seen a few succeed, too, and it's obvious which is which well before the starting gun.

We've been down that road before eh... they won't go quietly into the night and to hell with those who get in their way right? I'd hardly call that easier. Most of 'em likely don't respect the person making the critique and I can't say I blame them, erspercially when it's some overpaid less than useless moron that gets on well with their boss and gets the credit for the teams efforts. Even if you could shoot everyone that wasn't of "value", how are you going to handle the associated economic fallout?

Whether it's easier or not depends on what all those free lunches are costing you personally I'd say. And I don't blame most of 'em either, even when it's obvious to most that the dole queue is their natural element, taking the easy way is a genuine survival strategy. It's just not the way those I respect choose to live their lives.

As for handling the economic fallout? I'd retire immediately on the back of the vastly improved standard of living driven by the remainder actually providing something for their daily bread.

[mashman]

I'm surprised it's that low. What also surprises me is the number who don't have the courage of their convictions to start their own business and really take responsibility for their productivity. I've seen a few try, and fall flat on their face against the sheer workload required to match their previous paycheques. I've seen a few succeed, too, and it's obvious which is which well before the starting gun.

Bit of a brutal critique, but I understand what you mean having watched parents succeed and "fail" (The failure coming at the hands of a big supermarket chain opening up nearby and not through lack of effort. Pricepoint can be a business killer.) in business, as well as having been a part of the odd start up here and there with Del Boy at the helm.

Whether it's easier or not depends on what all those free lunches are costing you personally I'd say. And I don't blame most of 'em either, even when it's obvious to most that the dole queue is their natural element, taking the easy way is a genuine survival strategy. It's just not the way those I respect choose to live their lives.

As for handling the economic fallout? I'd retire immediately on the back of the vastly improved standard of living driven by the remainder actually providing something for their daily bread.

True and fair enough... yet you'd like to see them suffer some form of "punishment" for having that survival strategy? and I'd argue that most on the dole don't see it as their natural element and that most would contribute great value, in your terms, should they ever be given the chance to do so. Not all of the lifestylers are lazy either, well in the sense that some of them are 24/7 businesses. Funny though, the only difference I see between members of those two demographics is clothing and terminology. If the doley could talk about their business in the same sense as you and your friends, they would likely pass as a respectable character. Maybe a bit of a stretch, but certainly not outwith the realms of possibility.

Economic fallout: hyperinflation, interest rates, lack of unemployed to help balance the economy etc... and I have no problem with you wanting to retire given those circumstances. Albeit it would probably be a waste of talent.

[scumdog]

386 posts and this thread is STILLl lumbering and lurching along...

[mashman]

386 posts and this thread is STILLl lumbering and lurching along...

Cranky auld bugga... you need more diet-coke in that JD.

[Brian d marge]

Well doesn't equity beat giving your money to a landlord? Rent money is dead money - you're paying some-one else's mortgage or retirement plan, off! Sound clever? A Mortgage is money in the bank if you pay the bills and make good decisions.



Just because a house you might want to own is 600k doesn't mean housing is hard to get into. An average priced home has always been out of reach for the "first home buyer" They're different levels. Once you're in the market, dollar value becomes irrelevant because it all becomes relative.

This just means you start at the bottom just like most first home owners used to and you might have to move somewhere slightly undesirable or, do hard work on the first one, then trade up in the equity in a busy market, or sit still in a stagnant market until you've paid the Mortgage as soon as you can and that can happen rather quickly, as long as you don't over extend yourself.

It's truly a no brainer...

levi strauss made 23 % ,from 1970 to 1980 , how does that compare withthe housing market. Housing isnt the be all and end all , its what the banks are happy to lend on ,,,,

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

ok so in a nut shell some people are organising / rigging the system to make themselves feel better , usually using a tool called money.

One country bullied and exploited quite a few others and is using its might to pressure other country’s into following its self serving interests
Those interests are blind to things that actually NEED to happen , ( sustainability ) therefore it WILL collapse ( ask any engineer about equilibrium , and no if it has nothing substantial behind it , it will fall apart )

trouble is I like me new ipad , ( built under the current system ) and if i start hugging trees with a new way of looking at things. I dont get me Ipad , and that sux

If the ipad was completely made from sustainable components, so much so, that the more ipad I make the better is is for the environment ( compost for example ) we still have the problems of putting the things together ( people or robots ). What reward do they get for their effort?

Finally greed , this is ( i kind of think ) is hard wired into our brains ( 2 beers one 500ml one 1.5 litre , same price ,,,?)

If we could socially engineer tree hugging hippies whose goal in life , social orgasm was to increase the harmony between earth and us in an egalitarian communistic environment .....could it work? ....not sure , all it would take is for one person to alter his way of doing thing to slightly enhance his own , and bingo off we go again.

So while I rail against what is happening, I cant see any other alternatives due to our history as humans.

In the mean time Im sorry but the excesses must be kept in check , and the John keys of this world are just not the right kind of people to be off this world ,and educated, respected people make good social choices PERIOD, so to that aim I will devote my time

couldn’t be bothered putting into posh language , so tough

Stephen