The value of money has dropped by two thirds in 30 years

[husaberg]

Yes, we've done all this repeatedly, the union was manipulitive, the studios were ugly and the govt told porkies in cleaning up the mess. That cover it?

Yet again: The law changed, movies (including those unrelated to teh Hobbit) have since been made here that in all liklihood would not have been without that change. End of.

You nearly had me agreeing with you until the last bit Your justification is unfounded. As has been showed and as Peter Jackson has clearly stated. Mr Brownlee told Porkies to justify what he did. AS Peter Jackson has said we were still by far the best Deal around

In who’s opinion is it a great deal?

IF you mean the bit where they paid to much for the alcanz assets? it came from an economist so your right who says
They (Rio Tinto) signed it? The power price deal then tried to forcibly renegotiate it when they thought they had traction.

And hardball is exactly what most would expect a large corporation to play. Some people don’t see that as an ultimate barrier to a productive agreement.

A productive agreement is a win-win for both parties.......

You’re obviously on very good terms with John, if anyone else had told me that I’d suggest that at best it wasn’t a particularly lucid explanation for the events surrounding the industry, and at worst it sounded almost like union propaganda. If I was of a mind to entertain uncharitable suspicions regarding any lack of official enthusiasm for the industry at the time I’d probably be looking at influences of a greener tinge.

I have worked for 4 SOE's now I can tell you that they very week National came to power they The CEO's of the SOE' S were all hauled in front of the minister of SOE's and told in no certain terms they what dividend they were going to post.

Solid Energy for all its problems not including the poor decisions
Was told not to mine for almost a year post Pike.
Told they had to Buy the Pike mine.
Had to borrow to achieve the National defined return to the Government.
They were also told they were to pay 125 million dollars to the government as a Carbon tax.
They went to the government and said the market not good we need some capital Key hung them out to dry.
This is the same person who had said it was of national importance to for the country to bail out those who had lost money in Hanover and The SCF debacle with tax payer funds.

As for our coal reserves, notwithstanding the fact that there’s a fair wad of it for each kiwi and the fact that it apparently can’t be accessed for a price that allows it to be profitably marketed I don’t necessarily have a problem with us retaining them as exactly that, a reserve.

It can be they are just not allowed to, Solid Energy's cash cow Stockton is highly variable quality, spring creek was used to blend a lot more it into an acceptable quality. Now Stockton is less profitable because of this they are cutting back again.
BHP is running around the West Coast as we speck tying up as many additional mining licenses as they can.

I agree. I even agree that it appears we’re paying above market rates for electricity. Whether the price we’re charging Rio Tinto for power represents “support” I have no idea, you’d have to know a great deal more than I do about whatever benefits their business represents for NZ to make that call. As for new projects, ask what the economic surpluses of the 2000’s were spent on, ‘cause there was a bunch of us really really hoping it would be spent on infrastructure rather than social fiddling and election bribes.

It does one would expect a discount for bulk but not the bulk of consumers to support the price to achieve it.
AS for the Nanny state of the earlier part. Really can you tell me the workers are better off Now. The trickle downs from nationals policies is not exactly working is it. Everything is going up other than wages. Business is good.............. The whole time national was in the operstion they n=blreated we were being ripped off and they were being irresponsible not decreasing tax.
Have upped GST......Which is only a consumer cost.
Now we are going to sell of the silverware.
Wow a chance to buy something we already own? how exciting is that............

I remember my Father arriving back from a trip to Doubtful Sound with a couple of the principals, he worked for a local related equipment supplier. There was nowhere to moor the boat where they wanted to survey, vertical cliffs for miles each side of them. They managed to get a line around an outcrop while they dropped an anchor. They lost the lot, all 100yds plus of it.

Is there more hydraulic capacity in the system H? Would more tunnels expand the potential output?

The major problem is capacity with dryer years. Increasing the lake height would of course be a help but is a no no.
More tunnels would only increase short duration energy capacity.
interestingly the tides effect Manapori because of its outfall.
As it stands Manapori is being supplemented to power the smelter at times (but at a discounted rate of course)
PS to say i am union leaning is entirely incorrect, and to say i am green is FAF

[Ocean1]

You nearly had me agreeing with you

Difficult to argue, that’s the way the respective protagonists always behave, shouldn’t surprise anyone.

IF you mean the bit where they paid to much for the alcanz assets? it came from an economist so your right who says
They (Rio Tinto) signed it? The power price deal then tried to forcibly renegotiate it when they thought they had traction.

A productive agreement is a win-win for both parties.......

I actually meant the bit where they pay for power. There’s a bunch of different model structures that attempt to describe the shape of various markets. The one I find particularly attractive is really simple: what’s a reasonable return on cost of supply? I know you’ve posted numbers representing asset build costs etc, but they go nowhere near describing the current cost of electricity supply to Tiwai Point. It’s quite possible that they’re paying what that model would consider a reasonable return on the current cost of supply. In which case NZ.corp and RT both win. And that’s without considering secondary issues like taxes from related industry and unemployment.

To be honest I get annoyed at most other pricing rationale, they’re almost always simply attempts to justify costs for products I don’t want to buy.

I have worked for 4 SOE's now I can tell you that they very week National came to power they The CEO's of the SOE' S were all hauled in front of the minister of SOE's and told in no certain terms they what dividend they were going to post.

Solid Energy for all its problems not including the poor decisions
Was told not to mine for almost a year post Pike.
Told they had to Buy the Pike mine.
Had to borrow to achieve the National defined return to the Government.
They were also told they were to pay 125 million dollars to the government as a Carbon tax.
They went to the government and said the market not good we need some capital Key hung them out to dry.
This is the same person who had said it was of national importance to for the country to bail out those who had lost money in Hanover and The SCF debacle with tax payer funds.

Sounds like exactly the sort of behaviour I’d expect from the board of any large company. They do tend to get a bit testy with year-in year-out losses. And I’d rather the govt viewed our SOEs as something other than a cosy alternative that diverts attention from unemployment.

I wonder to what extent we’re affected by our various leaders field of experience, I don’t think I’ve ever been happy that the interests of people in technical roles have been represented well. We seem to get an endless string of academics with zero practical work experience or financial experts with zero practical work experience.

From my understanding the bail-out wasn’t required, private investors should take the hits with the gains. It’s possible I don’t know the full story there though.

It can be they are just not allowed to, Solid Energy's cash cow Stockton is highly variable quality, spring creek was used to blend a lot more it into an acceptable quality. Now Stockton is less profitable because of this they are cutting back again.
BHP is running around the West Coast as we speck tying up as many additional mining licenses as they can.

I’d tell ‘em if I was you. They’d have to listen if you gave ‘em the facts, innit?

I do know what you mean, though, I was doing some contract work for Rail when mate Cullen bought it back from Toll. With a minimum of inside knowledge you could easily see it was worth fuck all, by the time you added up the costs of outstanding maintenance, (the contract for which Toll tied up in the same deal) it exactly wiped out the asset capital value.

It does one would expect a discount for bulk but not the bulk of consumers to support the price to achieve it.

As I said, I’m not convinced the bulk of consumers are subsidising Tiwai Point. If I had to guess why we’re paying so much for power I’d be looking in other directions to see where our money’s going.

AS for the Nanny state of the earlier part. Really can you tell me the workers are better off Now.

Of course not, there’s the small matter of a worldwide recession. GDP’s looking up though, in a couple of years people will figure they can afford another labour govt. They’ll be wrong of course, but that’s never stopped them before.

The major problem is capacity with dryer years. Increasing the lake height would of course be a help but is a no no.
More tunnels would only increase short duration energy capacity.
interestingly the tides effect Manapori because of its outfall.
As it stands Manapori is being supplemented to power the smelter at times (but at a discounted rate of course)

I remember Jantar taking exception to my observation about the tidal flow through Cook straight being a tempting source for generation. Only a couple of metres head, he said. Still, there’s a fair quantity of water there and back again, twice a day…

[husaberg]

I actually meant the bit where they pay for power. There’s a bunch of different model structures that attempt to describe the shape of various markets. The one I find particularly attractive is really simple: what’s a reasonable return on cost of supply? I know you’ve posted numbers representing asset build costs etc, but they go nowhere near describing the current cost of electricity supply to Tiwai Point. It’s quite possible that they’re paying what that model would consider a reasonable return on the current cost of supply. In which case NZ.corp and RT both win. And that’s without considering secondary issues like taxes from related industry and unemployment.

You are are missing the but where the SOE is told what profit it has to return, and can't pass the cost on to its largest customer.
guess who makes up the difference, who pays?
People either don't understand or don't know about the SOE charter.
It states they are only to make a responsible profit. the new mixed model won't have this i are betting.
This is been holding back power prices (not that you would notice) this will no longer be in place.

Sounds like exactly the sort of behaviour I’d expect from the board of any large company. They do tend to get a bit testy with year-in year-out losses. And I’d rather the govt viewed our SOEs as something other than a cosy alternative that diverts attention from unemployment.

They were not making losses on the contrary they were posting profits year in and out plus paying good wages supporting local industries
this was not the case with RIO Tinto the profits are funneled offshore, Shit they( RIO TINTO)were exempt from company tax for a long time (1988)

From my understanding the bail-out wasn’t required, private investors should take the hits with the gains. It’s possible I don’t know the full story there though.

This is correct but it wasn't what happened was it.

I’d tell ‘em if I was you. They’d have to listen if you gave ‘em the facts, innit?
They know just as Timberland's knew, remember what happened to their CEO.
Fixing SE does not suit the political agenda the asset (coal reserves) are worth more than the company is as a whole

I do know what you mean, though, I was doing some contract work for Rail when mate Cullen bought it back from Toll. With a minimum of inside knowledge you could easily see it was worth fuck all, by the time you added up the costs of outstanding maintenance, (the contract for which Toll tied up in the same deal) it exactly wiped out the asset capital value.

The dollar deal with hooks LOL
If i recall corect one of the companies was sold off for a years profit for a start off.Telecom?
With the Railway deal Mr Fay and Co sacked all the people that maintained the tracks sold the silver and copper from the electric set up at Otira for a Million dollars i think.
run it into the ground for great profits. Admittedly Muldown had used it as a unemployment benefit (but shit stopped them burgling houses i guess)

Of course not, there’s the small matter of a worldwide recession. GDP’s looking up though, in a couple of years people will figure they can afford another labour govt. They’ll be wrong of course, but that’s never stopped them before.

Recession during recessions people make outstanding returns and the minions do not ask for wage increases.
The West Coast had no recession until SE shit went down

I remember Jantar taking exception to my observation about the tidal flow through Cook straight being a tempting source for generation. Only a couple of metres head, he said. Still, there’s a fair quantity of water there and back again, twice a day…

Jantar is the only Mod that has ever inf-acted me.
There is a place in NT that has a 20 meter tide similar in the UK.
Whats wrong with waves?
There was another scheme mooted for Stockton where the dirty water (acidic) was to be used to run a Hydro scheme it would be a great cheap scheme. Also great for the environment as the water would have by passed the river and it had a Huge head (about 400 meters) Cheap as well.
I think the company is imploding at the moment which is a shame (solid energy tried to block it as they wanted to do the same)