Thoughts on looking where you want to go

[R-Soul]

You're aware that the opposite is regarded as correct technique on dirt bikes?

Not so much lean out as put the bike down and sit on it.

And teh geometry isn't the reason.

But the accepted technique on dirt bikes is to follow the ruts, so you dont need the same amount of turn anyway.

[R-Soul]

You're aware that the opposite is regarded as correct technique on dirt bikes?

Not so much lean out as put the bike down and sit on it.

And teh geometry isn't the reason.

Also on dirt bikes, you actually try to break the back away, to use the rotation of the wheels to counter the centripetal forces, rather than the traction of the wheels on the dirt.

[bogan]

Never gheard that language before? A corner tightens up when it has decreasing radius and you cannot see the entire corner at tey start. hence 'tightening up'.

And yes, cars do clear logs in NZ. The log that smashed both of my rims came out from under a car on the harbour bridge. Thats was definitely no 'plank'!

What I meant was, a tightening corner is not something that happens unexpectedly.

Sound like a twig mate, logs are the ones that fit about a dozen to a semi-trailer.

Also on dirt bikes, you actually try to break the back away, to use the rotation of the wheels to counter the centripetal forces, rather than the traction of the wheels on the dirt.

Have you ridden dirt bikes much?

[Metastable]

Bogan touched on this.... but think of it this way.

- The further you look up the road, the more time you give your brain to process what is going on. i.e. it is almost like it slows things down. If you look closer to the bike, things seem faster... look further they seem slower. The faster your brain can process what is going on, the easier things become.

- Now take that thought, if you look where you want to go if "$#!T happens", then it gives one a better chance of putting the bike where it should go. If you are looking at the tweety birds, but doing everything else correctly, chances are you will make the corner too, however what is more likely to happen...... is that your brain will become "overloaded" and panic. Looking where you want to go, gives your melon a better chance of reacting correctly to the situation.

- Final point - LOOKING where you want to go, does not necessarily mean FOCUSING where you want to go. There is a great section on Twist of the Wrist II that talks about this. It is a fantastic weapon for road riding, especially for busy intersections or situations where there is a lot going on. Sit down in a room and look in the distance.... pick 4 objects. Focus on these objects one at a time and and switch your focus from one to the next as fast as possible. That is actually hard. Now instead of focusing on any object, look at the middle of all of those 4 objects, but keep all the objects in your peripheral. Now without moving your eyes, move your attention towards each object... from one to the next... actually you will notice that you can keep attention on all the objects at once. This is a great tool, both for street riding and track riding. Again, it helps to slow things down.

At the end of the day, looking where you want to go allows your brain to process information fast enough to allow you to make the right decision.

[R-Soul]

What I meant was, a tightening corner is not something that happens unexpectedly.

Of course it can happen unexpectedly if you are unfamiliar with the road and cannot see the ned of the corner when you start going into it.

Sound like a twig mate, logs are the ones that fit about a dozen to a semi-trailer.

That "twig" was enough to smash BOTH my rims.

Have you ridden dirt bikes much?

A bit - back in SA. And i have spent a lot of time thnnking about it. That is when you are not following a rut obviously...

[nodrog:Me]

......

At least on my bike, even with its forward riding position, in a hard turn its quite easy to run out of the reach required to countersteer harder/further (short arms).

.....

Have you got Cerebral palsy or somthing? cant you just pull with your inside arm?

[bogan]

Of course it can happen unexpectedly if you are unfamiliar with the road and cannot see the ned of the corner when you start going into it.

This is where the phrase 'expect the unexpected' works well, if you can't see the end of the corner, its best to assume the middle is further along the road.

That "twig" was enough to smash BOTH my rims.

Ok, lets call it a stick then, happy?

A bit - back in SA. And i have spent a lot of time thnnking about it. That is when you are not following a rut obviously...

I think you need to spend a bit more time testing those theories in the real world then, I have no idea how you think stepping out or spinning the rear does things with the centripetal forces. Its about getting grip on an uneven surface where grip is more about the 'mechanical interlock' than it is about friction.

[R-Soul]

Have you got Cerebral palsy or somthing? cant you just pull with your inside arm?

You obviously mean pull with my outside arm? You push with your inside arm when countersteering.

Pulling hard is also not ideal, since if you are not properly hooked around or wedged against something like your tank, you can end up slipping.

[Usarka]

What the fuck is an inside arm? The one stuck up your arse?

With out question, practising looking where you want to go pays off, the sub consciousness

I reckon mountain biking is a great way to practice looking where you want to go. First couple of decent crashes you'll start to work it out, and hitting a tree at 25kph is a bit more forgiving than a lampost at 100.

[nodrog:Me]

You obviously mean pull with my outside arm? You push with your inside arm when countersteering.

Pulling hard is also not ideal, since if you are not properly hooked around or wedged against something like your tank, you can end up slipping.

sorry, i was in sidecar mode.

pulling hard is never ideal.

[R-Soul]

I think you need to spend a bit more time testing those theories in the real world then, I have no idea how you think stepping out or spinning the rear does things with the centripetal forces. Its about getting grip on an uneven surface where grip is more about the 'mechanical interlock' than it is about friction.

I would love to test those theories more in the real world, but cant afford a dirt bike right now.

Even though you have mechanical interlock with the top layer of dirt, whats stops thr next layer down from slipping - and lets face it friction in dirt is not very much.

So instead of relying on friction, the wheel steps out a little, like you would see in that dirt speedway racing. When it is stepped out, looking at the rear wheel from the top in a corner, the direction of alignment of the rear wheel has a radial component. The rear wheel is therfore partly providing a pushing force inward radially in a corner. The inward force in the corner is created by interlock (like you say) creating pure friction acting in a direction transverse to the direction of travel of the wheel, but also the inward component of the wheels driving force (i.e. from it turning) driving partly inwardly. And probably to a lot more minor extent, the dirt being kicked out backward having a reaction force going forward (principle of conservation of momentum and all that).


Try testing this theory by trying to go around a corner fast (on a flat dirt track - not rutted) without having your throttle hard open. I do not believe that you would be able to coast around a corner leaning over with no throttle being applied, as fast as you would be able to go around the corner with the back stepped out and the throttle open.

[R-Soul]

What the fuck is an inside arm? The one stuck up your arse?



I reckon mountain biking is a great way to practice looking where you want to go. First couple of decent crashes you'll start to work it out, and hitting a tree at 25kph is a bit more forgiving than a lampost at 100.

I was not discussing that kind of riding - although you seem to be quite familiar with it....

[90s]

I reckon mountain biking is a great way to practice looking where you want to go. First couple of decent crashes you'll start to work it out, and hitting a tree at 25kph is a bit more forgiving than a lampost at 100.

Totally right. I mountain bike all the time, at Woodhill out back for example you need to be looking at the path through the trees. Target fixation will take you down. And you look where you go, and its nothing to do with body position and everything to do with the cognitive arguments people have made here.

Example - in yesterday rain on Scenic drive I got the biggest sideways powerslide on than I've had for years. By the time I thought "whoaa sh..." my learned motor skills and 25 years of tacit skills built up through experience on bikes had corrected the problem and sorted it out. I am 100% sure if "I", my conscious mind, had had time to react I would have binned it.

And don't forget, countersteering is NOT physics, or something that happens naturally. The physics of gyroscopes is all well and good, steering is something YOU do, and learners (many of very young kids on bicycles) fight the coutnersteering effect at first, trained initially to steer "right to go right." Many people tacitly learn to CS, but again if you ask them how they steer are unaware of the effect. And if they are unaware, in an emergency can fight countersteering forces. Which is why being in control is about developing the right tacit skills to kick in when needed.

I've seen some fo the BRONZ guys demo riding figs. of 8s with hands crossed over, looking the opposite way etc, and what they are doing is proving all this, not the opposite - by showing how demanding it is to do the opposite. You can do it for some time, but the information processing and concentration it requires means its just a party trick. Shows you have great tacit and explicit skills though.

[bogan]

I would love to test those theories more in the real world, but cant afford a dirt bike right now.

Even though you have mechanical interlock with the top layer of dirt, whats stops thr next layer down from slipping - and lets face it friction in dirt is not very much.

So instead of relying on friction, the wheel steps out a little, like you would see in that dirt speedway racing. When it is stepped out, looking at the rear wheel from the top in a corner, the direction of alignment of the rear wheel has a radial component. The rear wheel is therfore partly providing a pushing force inward radially in a corner. The inward force in the corner is created by interlock (like you say) creating pure friction acting in a direction transverse to the direction of travel of the wheel, but also the inward component of the wheels driving force (i.e. from it turning) driving partly inwardly. And probably to a lot more minor extent, the dirt being kicked out backward having a reaction force going forward (principle of conservation of momentum and all that).


Try testing this theory by trying to go around a corner fast (on a flat dirt track - not rutted) without having your throttle hard open. I do not believe that you would be able to coast around a corner leaning over with no throttle being applied, as fast as you would be able to go around the corner with the back stepped out and the throttle open.

Ok now I see what you mean, it's still the traction that is providing the cornering force though. It just provides it through oversteer because of the directional nature of traction on slippery surfaces. It sounded like you meant the gyro forces from the rotation or something obscure, not the slip; also, the slip/traction provides the centripetal force, it counters the centrifugal forces.

[granstar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTsKlVTftO8