CBTA Competency Based Training and Assessment

[psycho22]

Oh I do see your point and I'm willing to go on any course to help me either by giving me extra skills or to point out bad habits

The main issue I have with the time based licencing system is that not everybody gains expirence and skill at the same rate

Also once you do pass your full you are expected to be competent enough to ride anything and also take pillions with no previous experience with the extra weight

Personaly I would like to see a week course/test that if you pass gives you your full licence and involves rider training on bigger bikes as well as pillion riding etc and you have to pass a test on the larger bike to show that you can handle any bike which your full licence allows you to, this test should include tracks that have hazards on them ie diesal or ice on corners wet and dry conditions etc etc

Things that show you can confidently ride

If that makes sense

Also alot of males (not all) will go out and buy something grunty as hell after being stuck on a lams bike thats underpowered/heavy because theyve been fustrated for so long they will get a girl they want to impress on the back and just thrash the hell out of it.

Tbh you can do the same amount of damage coming off a 1000cc at 100-120km as you can on a 250cc also alot of the lams bikes are heavier then most of the sports bikes out

I get the reasoning about the power and acceration being to much for a learner to handle but theres this thing called a throttle and if you dont open it all the way by using some common sense then its not really an issue is it?

Whats worse pushing a lams bike to its limit because you want to go fast (alot of people do) or having a 1000cc bike that can comfortablly go along at most speeds that you would safely be doing on the road

Also wouldnt a 1000cc sports bike be safer then a smaller bike if you are breaking the law?

This is a touchy subject with me and there is sides for and against

But I am all for these courses

I had similar views when I was learning but honestly later on down the track when your looking back you understand why all these rules and restrictions are in place.

There is SO much more to bigger bikes than just having a throttle to control and your clearly not ready for one if that is the way you think of them.

[nerrrd]

While saddle time is a good way of learning how to ride a motorcycle, repetitive short rides (like commuting and weekend cafe crawling) doesn't really teach people much. Unless they're committed to doing big rides in most imaginable conditions, then a commuter is just a commuter.

Couldn't agree more, this describes the first 15 years of my riding career to a T. Now that I've come back to riding, while I'm still mainly just "commuting" I'm trying to do heaps of courses as well and more trips out of town to get my skills up - and still riding a LAMs bike.

It's great that there are these kinds of courses available nowadays, I don't remember much being available in the 80s and 90s, not that I ever bothered to look back then.

[CookMySock]

While saddle time is a good way of learning how to ride a motorcycle, repetitive short rides (like commuting and weekend cafe crawling) doesn't really teach people much. Unless they're committed to doing big rides in most imaginable conditions, then a commuter is just a commuter. Slow speed courses teach heaps, as does having one's general riding competence critiqued by a teaching professional.

Agree completely, but I'd like to suggest that at least 50% of "learning to ride motorcycles" is about time, consolidation, and just settling in so things feel normal - no about of "teaching" will do a similar result.

I made it my business to have 90% of the "information I needed" right away, but only after 60ish thousand kms have I felt at home with my face down near the tar seal at 120km/hr, and some people will never feel normal doing this, and I submit time is the only thing that will do it. This transfers into "excess brain power available for use" during abnormal and emergency procedures.

Knowing the way is not believing the way.

[bluninja]

Whats worse pushing a lams bike to its limit because you want to go fast (alot of people do) or having a 1000cc bike that can comfortablly go along at most speeds that you would safely be doing on the road

Also wouldnt a 1000cc sports bike be safer then a smaller bike if you are breaking the law?

This is a touchy subject with me and there is sides for and against

But I am all for these courses

I'm not sure what you mean by pushing a LAMS bike to it's limit. Do you mean the limit of it's suspension/handling capability? Pushing it to the limit of it's power? Do you mean pushing it to the riders limits?

My few cents worth.....better brakes, suspension and handling on a sportsbike should allow more margin for error going round bends and stopping...however the flip side is that the blistering performance can get you into trouble before you have chance to put the brakes on. The other thing about sports bikes is that they can feel harsh and twitchy because they are setup to trun in fast and provide feedback. Add a tense newbie and you can have at best some unfcomfortable rides; at worse overreact and have an accident.

When I got round to my license I did a 3 day course on a CG125, passed my test and picked up my ZZR600 the next day.
The years I had spent riding small capacity commuters in no way prepared me for handling a heavier bike. So the time delayed graduated license system to me seems total arse on it's own.

Compulsory high quality training and assessment is the way forward.

[f2dz]

Any idea of when these will come into effect? It says late 2013, but more specifically?

I'm dying to get off the 250 already.

[TheTengTheory]

When I got round to my license I did a 3 day course on a CG125, passed my test and picked up my ZZR600 the next day.
The years I had spent riding small capacity commuters in no way prepared me for handling a heavier bike. So the time delayed graduated license system to me seems total arse on it's own.

Compulsory high quality training and assessment is the way forward.

I'm still on my learners myself but I have a few friends who jumped from a 250 to liter bikes and the general consensus is that its completely different and its like learning to ride again only with alot more power. I think giving high quality training will help that transition as oppose to just time. I agree experience and saddle time helps and is very important however, all the saddle time in the world won't fix bad habits you've picked up along the way.

Also consider that some people ride ALOT more than others. The first 2-3months I clocked up over 5000km on my motorbike. Had I kept my full time job I would probably continue at that same rate. Now as a student I only use my motorbike to commute into town and the occasional (money dependant ) weekend blast. If I started off in the latter stage, a year and half would be far too short of a time lapse to gain the neccessary experience. Again these are all situational and I think LTA's biggest problem is everyone wants a system that suits themselves.

Competency based training that affect your time as a learner/restricted on the bike would be most appropiate to cater to individual rider ability and skill. At the end of the day, a standard (ride competency not just the road code) should be placed so that if you cannot achieve these standards (monetary reasons included), you don't get a full license.

This is in an ideal world of course

[Tricia1000]

The ins and outs of it haven't been put together yet. But we are working on it.
How ever, you could be riding a LAMS bike, instead of the 250, straight away.

Tricia1000
RoADA (Dip)
Consultant to NZTA

Any idea of when these will come into effect? It says late 2013, but more specifically?

I'm dying to get off the 250 already.

[Dragon]

The ins and outs of it haven't been put together yet. But we are working on it.
How ever, you could be riding a LAMS bike, instead of the 250, straight away.

Tricia1000
RoADA (Dip)
Consultant to NZTA

Im not a big fan of any lams bike on the list

I am a sports bike rider not a cruiser or tourer person

There are like 4 bikes id consider and they are either hard to get or expensive

Also if I spend 10-16k on a bike I dont want one that is limited

[Glowerss]

Im not a big fan of any lams bike on the list

I am a sports bike rider not a cruiser or tourer person

There are like 4 bikes id consider and they are either hard to get or expensive

Also if I spend 10-16k on a bike I dont want one that is limited

Bike: Suzuki Gsx 250 invader

Sportsbike rider?

You do realize that the GS500 and your bike share basically the exact same frame and componentry and whathaveyou right? Just half the capacity? Shit even the newer GS500s look significantly better then the intruders.

Tbh you can do the same amount of damage coming off a 1000cc at 100-120km as you can on a 250cc also alot of the lams bikes are heavier then most of the sports bikes out

I get the reasoning about the power and acceration being to much for a learner to handle but theres this thing called a throttle and if you dont open it all the way by using some common sense then its not really an issue is it?

Whats worse pushing a lams bike to its limit because you want to go fast (alot of people do) or having a 1000cc bike that can comfortablly go along at most speeds that you would safely be doing on the road

Also wouldnt a 1000cc sports bike be safer then a smaller bike if you are breaking the law?

This is a touchy subject with me and there is sides for and against

But I am all for these courses

If you genuinely feel that way, I don't really know what to say.

Are you really seriously genuinely trying to make the argument that a litre bike is safer in any way shape or form then something like a ninja 250?
You're certainly no safer on a litrebike doing stupid speeds then you are on a smaller capacity bike. In fact, you're probably less safe because of the rate to which you can get to stupid speeds on a litrebike and how much faster one can go. Most LAMS bikes are lucky to top out at 150ish KPH. Most modern supersports can do twice that or more

Yes, 100kph is 100kph. But the difference between a bike that takes 8 seconds to get to 100kph and one that takes 2 and can do it in first gear is so staggeringly ginormous that it doesn't even really merit discussion.
You go over a bump on a litre bike and mistakenly grab a fist full of throttle, you're either going into the back of the car in front of you faster then your ass can suck up the vinyl off the seat, or you'll be sitting on the road wondering where the fuck your bike went.

The reason why "learner" bikes are somewhat beige, is because they're more forgiving. A litrebike is an absolutely unforgiving piece of machinery. I can do stupid shit to the hornet, and as long as i'm not massively overstepping it's capabilities, it's not going to chuck me off.

All and all, your comments in a lot of threads recently have me concerned for your well being and future safety. I hope for your sake, you re-adjust some of your views before you get your full, or you take it to the track where you crashing won't hurt anybody else.

[Stevee2]

Can't wait for these courses. Im stuck bikeless in the USA until August so coming back is going to be like learning all over again. I feel like these courses might take away some of the complaints about people being failed on 'silly' things as well which will be good.

[Wayz]

Ok, the course idea is great, as a newbie to road riding I welcome any course that reduces license time. I do think that our motorcycle licensing system is hugely flawed, but at the same time I think we are heading in the right direction. I have owned and ridden dirt bikes all my life so bikes are not new to me (needed to clarify).....

what I don't understand is how the only difference between the restricted license and learner's is the L-Plate. So really we are in-directly using a two-stage licensing system....but paying for three....

[Tricia1000]

Absolutely. Up until a couple of years ago the restricted rider, also gained the permission to do 100 on the motorway etc. Now the only thing is the loss of the L plate.
About two years ago, when we first started working on the CBTA, I did make a good case for skipping the RESTRICTED LICENCE TEST for bikers, as they had already paid money at the basic handling stage.
However, for years the bike test has remained equivalent to the car test, as that is the way the legislation is written.
MIT would require new legislation to change the bike test to exclude RESTRICTED LICENCE TEST.
Since it took 72 years to raise the minimum age for drivers/riders from 15 to 16, I am not hopeful that I will still be alive, if and when they skip the RESTRICTED LICENCE TEST.
But the CBTA will be great once it is up and running, as it will provide a faster , but safer means of getting to full licence.
Tricia1000
RoADA (Dip)
Consultant to NZTA

[davereid]

The course sounds valuable. Regardless of its legal position it would be valuable for most riders.

But the entire Driver Licence industry reeks of another of the NZTA scams.

Like so many NZTA contracts, driver licence testing has gone to a single provider, providing them with an exclusive and un-contestable cash cow.

Complaints are dealt with by, you guessed it the same provider.

IMHO the NZTA do this kind of corrupt shit all the time. Driver Licence Testing, imported vehicle checks, personalised plates, electronic road signage etc etc etc all quietly farmed out to private companies with exclusive or near exclusive deals, that appear to be above the scrutiny of the official information act.

Then as soon as the NZTA have your personal data, they sell it, to anyone who will cough up the cash.

[Xsannz]

Nzta scam agreed.

Courses that actuly teach or well worth it imho.

Commuting daily taught me nothing.. Track time helped and also showed how much i didnt know.

I recommend pro drive bike courses or a few of the other guided track day courses.

I take a refreshes defensive anti skid training at work in the work vehicle every year as part of health and saftey.

And i even redid a defensive driving course last year.... Its amazing the shit you tend to get relaxed about and ig ore over time

Defensive course refresher helped with bike skills and hazard awareness more even if it was a car course.

I would be interested in doing somethi bike orientated... Even after my accident of late.

If the e accident taught me anything its that shit happens and sometimes no matter the bike or your comfort levels.

Sometimes its all out of your control.

I.e... Cat into front wheel mid corner.

[Wayz]

From what I've read on the NZTA website, the course cuts the 6 months from the learners licence as well as 6 months from the restricted licence (two separate courses).....so what I want to know is for the ones that have had to currently sit out the 6months for the learners (because of Unavailability of cbta) are they able to deduct an extra 6 months from restricted if they sit the learners course (that would make a total deduction of 12 months from restricted licence)??

I hope for the sake of thousands of riders out there, the NZTA considers this....