The fascist regime that made you a moron: Thanks dJonkey

[Banditbandit]

What? you don't see me matching the traditional radical left view of an anarchist?

No, I would have picked you for a pretty typical right-wing Libertarian

You're right: "In terms of morals there is no such thing as a ‘state.’ Just men. Individuals. Each responsible for his own acts. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free, because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything that I do".

.. Yeup .. Libertarian

And in spite of what your social studies teacher told you that right there is the antithesis of socialism, capitalism is nothing more than an economic model.

Maybe Freedman's view of Capitalism is just that .. but others disagree - even the capitalists ...

"Capitalism is a social system based on the principle of individual rights. Politically, it is the system of laissez-faire (freedom). Legally it is a system of objective laws (rule of law as opposed to rule of man). Economically, when such freedom is applied to the sphere of production its’ result is the free-market." From http://capitalism.org/

I guess I figure the basic tenet to be so intrinsically correct that I don't actually believe anyone behaves differently, no matter what they think drives their policy. I don't absolutely require that others behave similarly, but I certainly treat everyone else from behind the eyes of a rational anarchist, as if they're responsible for themselves. Refuse to accept less from anyone.

Yes - and that is one area where Libertarians and Anarchists agree ...

Oh well. Much as I admire Robert Heinlein his anarchistic principles do not approach the deeper considerations of jurisprudence and philosophy. Man can be immoral but the state can be moral - which is the opposite of what Heinlein said. Trouble is, it aint easy to find the optimum state morality. Capital punishment is the hardest example.

Moral/Immoral ??? A fiction created by human beings ... there is no such thing in any reality ...

[Ocean1]

.. Yeup .. Libertarian

It's a quote from the inventor of rational anarchy in your favourite book. The ultimate authority, explaining what constitutes a rational anarchist.

As for Libertarians and Anarchists agreeing that individuals should be responsible for themselves, it's really only socialists that don't agree.

Which raises another Heinlein truism: TANSTAFL.

[mashman]

As for Libertarians and Anarchists agreeing that individuals should be responsible for themselves, it's really only socialists that don't agree.

I disagree. I reckon socialists accept that an individual should be responsible for themselves, but they also makes provision for those who can't. Something libertarians don't and something that Anarchists do. Libertarians are fuckwits.

[Ocean1]

I disagree. I reckon socialists accept that an individual should be responsible for themselves, but they also makes provision for those who can't. Something libertarians don't and something that Anarchists do.

Socialists might agree that everyone should be responsible for themselves, but then they thieve everyone's cash and make sure that nobody's actually capable of doing it.

And I'd say your classic anarchist is somewhat less likely to approve of handouts than someone of a standard libertairan flavour.

Libertarians are fuckwits.

Yeah, you crave authority. But only if it agrees with you.

[Banditbandit]

It's a quote from the inventor of rational anarchy in your favourite book. The ultimate authority, explaining what constitutes a rational anarchist.

Yes .. but to highlight that without the total context provided by the proff's piolitical philosophy seems especially libertarian.

Socialists might agree that everyone should be responsible for themselves, but then they thieve everyone's cash and make sure that nobody's actually capable of doing it.

And I'd say your classic anarchist is somewhat less likely to approve of handouts than someone of a standard libertairan flavour.

Hmm .. I'm more inclined to the view that Anarchists are leftwing but libertarian are rightwing .. The political compass is better than a straight line axis (go here ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_compass) In the diagram (top of the page right) I'm more inclined to make the green area Anarchist ....

Yeah, you crave authority. But only if it agrees with you.

I think that applies to most non-self actualized human beings ...

[Ocean1]

Yes .. but to highlight that without the total context provided by the proff's piolitical philosophy seems especially libertarian.

Again, it's a wiki reference, quoting that character explaining his political pholosophy. In terms of accuracy it simply doesn't come any more authoritive and any less molested by liberterian translations, or anyone else's for that matter.

Hmm .. I'm more inclined to the view that Anarchists are leftwing but libertarian are rightwing .. The political compass is better than a straight line axis (go here ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_compass) In the diagram (top of the page right) I'm more inclined to make the green area Anarchist ....

Yes, I’m familiar with it. Your reference to the device and subsequent comment simply shows, again, the extent to which your beliefs distort your perceptions. Libertarians are anti-state, they’re just as anti left wing state as they are anti right wing state. The same is true of amarchists, in spades. Attributing socialist or capitalist characteristics to either is simply incorrect.

I think that applies to most non-self actualized human beings ...

Possibly. Certainly describes the duplicitous thinking of most socialists, they want someone to take care of them but they want someone else to pay for it.

[mashman]

Socialists might agree that everyone should be responsible for themselves, but then they thieve everyone's cash and make sure that nobody's actually capable of doing it.

And I'd say your classic anarchist is somewhat less likely to approve of handouts than someone of a standard libertairan flavour.

Yeah, you crave authority. But only if it agrees with you.

And capitalists don't? If you total all of the benefit fraud in the NZ, multiply it by 100 and then compare it to the 5 largest capitalist fraud's over the last 5 years, the 5 will dwarf that which the total population * 100 on NZ has defrauded. Tax evasion is theft and according to a recent US media release, 100,000 people have 32 trillion offshore somewhere. It's the nature of a capitalist to lie and cheat, not so much for the socialist.

Really? I think the anarchist would probably be more pragmatic about the handouts in the first place and ALL income would be means tested in order to decide where the handouts went. A far cry from the libertarian stance.

... I crave many things, but authority isn't one of them. There's nothing wrong with Leadership and direction unless it is authoritative and not for reasons that benefit everyone.

[Ocean1]

And capitalists don't? If you total all of the benefit fraud in the NZ, multiply it by 100 and then compare it to the 5 largest capitalist fraud's over the last 5 years, the 5 will dwarf that which the total population * 100 on NZ has defrauded. Tax evasion is theft and according to a recent US media release, 100,000 people have 32 trillion offshore somewhere. It's the nature of a capitalist to lie and cheat, not so much for the socialist..

Yes. I suspect you’re confusing tax evasion with tax avoidance, which is perfectly legal. But that wee problem with your numbers hardly makes a dent in the point you’re presumably attempting to make against the fact that you’re certainly confusing America, which we don’t give a flying fuck about, with NZ. Which sorta suggests that you could teach yer average capitalist a thing or two about lying and cheating. But If it worries you that much why don’t you go and offer your services to the FBI, I’m sure they’d be really really appreciative.

Not, I hasten to add, that I'm attempting to infer that all socialists lie ALL of the time. Some quite prominent examples of the species quite freely admit that all tax is theft. Which tends to leave any complaints that people are attempting to minimise their losses exposed as the ultimate hypocrisy it really is.

Really? I think the anarchist would probably be more pragmatic about the handouts in the first place and ALL income would be means tested in order to decide where the handouts went. A far cry from the libertarian stance.

Don’t know how you figure that, given that both are intrinsically against state interference with individuals lives. The facts must be an almost insurmountable obstacle to your beliefs, eh?

... I crave many things, but authority isn't one of them.

Which, I’m distressed to tell you, makes you an anarchist.

There's nothing wrong with Leadership and direction unless it is authoritative and not for reasons that benefit everyone.

So, a sort of fascist communism, then?

Sounds lovely.

[mashman]

Yes. I suspect you’re confusing tax evasion with tax avoidance, which is perfectly legal. But that wee problem with your numbers hardly makes a dent in the point you’re presumably attempting to make against the fact that you’re certainly confusing America, which we don’t give a flying fuck about, with NZ. Which sorta suggests that you could teach yer average capitalist a thing or two about lying and cheating. But If it worries you that much why don’t you go and offer your services to the FBI, I’m sure they’d be really really appreciative.

Not, I hasten to add, that I'm attempting to infer that all socialists lie ALL of the time. Some quite prominent examples of the species quite freely admit that all tax is theft. Which tends to leave any complaints that people are attempting to minimise their losses exposed as the ultimate hypocrisy it really is.

Don’t know how you figure that, given that both are intrinsically against state interference with individuals lives. The facts must be an almost insurmountable obstacle to your beliefs, eh?

Which, I’m distressed to tell you, makes you an anarchist.

So, a sort of fascist communism, then?

Sounds lovely.

Ahhhh that little get our of jail free card. Set up by the rich for the rich to stay richer, with the hangers on using the excuse to divorce themselves from the reality many of the services they receive are paid for by taxation. That and ignoring the fact that where they have legally ducked out of their part of the social contract the govt has had to borrow 10's of billions of $ to make up the short fall... and yet still have the balls to moan and grumble about it because they believe that they have earned what they have earned irrespective of anyone else's contribution. Your mum must be proud.

you gotta get your nose out of the books man. They're fuckin up what's left of your brain... well, soul might be a better description. Some socialists say that eh... they're not very good socialists are they. Are they just left wing voters and that's your all encompassing term for them?

The facts are only insurmountable to you as you are unable to conceive of handouts outwith the govt. What a small narrow minded world your mind occupies. The State isn't the only mechanism of aid, not should it be the agency of giving aid. That should be done locally. Grow a mind of your own, they're really quite remarkable when functioning properly.

No it doesn't. I believe that govt has its place.

Nope, just free people living in a free world and cooperating for everyone's benefit and not the self-proclaimed morons who believe that they are deserved a living because some so called free market allows them to. Something more commonly referred to as the chicken shit copout. I've got my old hat if you want it as it doesn't fit anymore. My apologies for the lack of tinfoil.

T'would certainly be better than the shit you believe serves mankind best. But I'm after something much better than that.

[Ocean1]

Some socialists say that eh... they're not very good socialists are they. Are they just left wing voters and that's your all encompassing term for them?

Well alright, not the most rabid red going.

All tax is theft

I love it that you get less lucid when wound up, and yet make no less sense. Remarkable.

[mashman]

Well alright, not the most rabid red going.

I love it that you get less lucid when wound up, and yet make no less sense. Remarkable.

ha ha ha ha haaaaaaa... not even a red, unless we're talkin LFC that is.

... I haven't been wound up when posting in almost 18 months now. Tis you that be translating it that way, which is much to my amusement.

[Banditbandit]

Yes, I’m familiar with it. Your reference to the device and subsequent comment simply shows, again, the extent to which your beliefs distort your perceptions. Libertarians are anti-state, they’re just as anti left wing state as they are anti right wing state. The same is true of amarchists, in spades. Attributing socialist or capitalist characteristics to either is simply incorrect.

Hmmm .. see most of the Anarchists I know and have read - such as Faber, Rocker, Malatesta - accept what is seen as a Marxist analysis of the change from Feudalism to Capitalism .. and the inherent problems that go with it . the class structure, the disempowerment of the people who actually produce stuff ... the inequitious distribution of wealth in a capitlaist society (all good left-wing ideas) .. and of course marx took many of his ideas from Proudhon who was a good anarchist ...

The difference is that we do not accept Marx's solution - which is a revolution to smash the state, then the installation of a Socialist state, which becomes a Communist state, which then withers and dies to leave the dictatorship of the proleteriat (ignore Marx's unfortunate terminology ... we accept the same endpoint as Marx .. but say that the state itself is a problem .. any state.

When you smash the state why on earth would you impose another state ... socialist or not .. they all tend to elitism and the ruling ideology of any state is the ideology of the ruling elite (pure Marx) ... every country that has had a reviolutuon and imposed a "different" state has gone down that path ... they all create new ruling elities .. Marx's historic materialism has been proven false by history ...

in fact I would argue that the majority of the revolutions we have seen have been created by the sons and daughters of the ruling class who were not getting to the top fast enough .. and violently pushed "mum and dad" out of the way ...

The anarchist answer is a society in which any rules are agreed on 100% by the members of that society ... it does not mean No Government or social rules - it means a consensus Governemtn with consensus rules ... a simple majority is not sufficient ...

PS .. yeah I know .. Most anachists now accept that a truly consensus society is a pipe dream for anything other than small communes, or very small states ... It does not mean we stop working towards that goal ... at least by doing so we are working for a better society ...

[Banditbandit]

Riddle

Why do anarchists only drink herbal tea ??

Because proper tea is theft ...


PS: a libertarian would never regard property as theft - property is something to be defended - by armed response if necessary ..

[SPman]

If you have to talk about it, lay out theories and agenda and talk pompous, self aggrandising shit justifying your position, you're not an anarchist! You're just another wanking, egocentric, pseudo intellectual!

Like true bikers, you either are, or you aren't.

[Banditbandit]

If you have to talk about it, lay out theories and agenda and talk pompous, self aggrandising shit justifying your position, you're not an anarchist! You're just another wanking, egocentric, pseudo intellectual!

Like true bikers, you either are, or you aren't.

Bwhahahaha .. Yes ... I can accept that ...

I also work in tertiary education .. so yes, alongside the anarchic biker is "a interlektul" ... I get paid shitloads per week to propogate bullshit ... I'd have to admit I'm pretty good at it ... 'cause anarchy is a legitimate political position

Riding bikes is my escape from bullshit ... so the anarchic biker sits alongside the politically anarchist teacher ...