The fascist regime that made you a moron: Thanks dJonkey

[Ocean1]

They will however be able to assist the Police where permission is granted.

And if you believe that shit then god help you!

So, leme get this straight. You reckon that a law specifically outlining when it's OK to spy on people is going to be ignored, and it's better not to have it so that the spies can't ignore it...

[mashman]

Fascism by out-sourcing... and oh what a positive difference it makes to the lives of thousands of people.

[Banditbandit]

Except there are journalists - and then there are activists. Nicky Hagar is an activist and good on him. We need such people. However if I was a soldier I wouldn't trust him not to reveal my unit, my location, my full name, where my family lived etc etc. Both left and right-wing activists tend to be zealous people who don't care if ordinary people get crushed along the way.

Journalists are accepted in war zones. Activists, not so much.

Yeah I don't see Nicky as a journalist - as an ex-journo myself I'm a little pissed off that he now class himelf an investigative journalist ... however, I don't think that was all the defence force were worried about - look at the recent case with Jon Stephenson

So far as I know the GCSB will not be spying on mum and dad and the kids. They don't have the time, the resources, and any reason to do so. They will however be able to assist the Police where permission is granted.

Yeesss .. I say that a little cautiously .. it's the "as far as I know ..." bit .. recent things have come to light that put that into the category of "we really don't know ..."

We really did not expect parilamentary services to hand over a journalists phoen records to an enquiry - without the journalists' knowledge. We really did not expect an MP to have his e-mails hacked on behalf of the same enquiry ...

We really did not expect ACC, EQC, etc etc to breach the privacy conventions in the ways they have ...

So we really do NOT know what they will do ... We can't trrust them ..

And if they fllow the 'Merikan model they will be sweeping e-mails, etc etc looking for key words and phrases .. how do these peoploe know who to look for if they don't do general sweeps??? If they know who they are looking for they do not need this sort of legislation - they can get interception warrants now if they have good cause .. they do not need this legislation to do that - this is a widening of the powers of the state.

As for Operation 8 - too many such events in our history?? Nonsense. The only similar thing I can think of in the past 50 years is the Dawn Raids of 1976 when the police actively sought Pacific Islander overstayers. Distasteful yes, but lawful, and it happens daily in the USA. Including kiwis who get caught overstaying. US Immigration doesn't apologise or muck about.

See - to me that's big problem, White New Zealand does not remember it's history ...

A couple of examples ...

The invasion by armed police of Maungapohatu in 1916 (against Tuhoe again ae ...) with the killing by police of Rua Kennan's son ..

The invasion in 1881 of peaceful Parihaka in Taranaki by armed constabulary and troops, with many deaths, the unwarranted arrest of men, the rape and brutalization of the women ... the burning and destruction of the township - (the first town in New Zealand with street lighting)

And if you think "only against Māori ..."

The police action in Waihi in 1912 during the strike there - and the fatal shooting of John Fredrick Evans on November 12 - possibly by scabs, possibly by police ...

The imprisoning of Labour activist Peter Fraser four times during WWII for speaking out against conscription - later Fraser was Prime Minsiter of New Zealand. Hundres of members of the Christian Pacifist Movement were imprisoned durign the war because they refused to be conscrupted as they were conscientious objectors ... the appeals boards refused to accept their stance and locked them up for refusing conscription

Massey's Cossacks - police brutality during the 1913 waterfront strike ...

How about the 1974 slandering of Dr Bull Sutch as a "comunist spy" .. never proven ... "It was claimed by the Security Intelligence Service (SIS) that Sutch had obtained official government information to give to the Soviets although no such information was ever found, and he had been out of the public service for almost a decade. Following a high-profile trial which gripped all New Zealand, a jury acquitted Sutch of the charges in February 1975.

Neither the New Zealand police nor the SIS could provide any evidence that Sutch had passed information to the Soviet diplomat (hence the curious charge that he faced, under the Official Secrets Act, of passing unspecified information to the Soviet Union)."

And lets be honest about the Urawera raids for once. People were conspiring together with weapons,

Where they? How do you know that ?? Where you there ??? Did you read it in the media ??? If so, why were they never prosecuted?

dressed in quasi-military fatigues, and observed to be training.

Just like many rightwing groups I could name ... How come you link dressing in military fatigues and training with "terrorism" ???

Furthermore hunters in the area were threatened. I'd be shocked if the police didn't take action.

Yes, I agree. That is shocking, worrying and well out of order. HOWEVER those people were not the same as the supposed group Operation 8 was supposedly aimed at. The peope who make the threats are poorly educated people who hunt in that area and don't want their hunting areas distirubed by what they see as outsiders - they are not the activists (tho' I admit that sometmes the activists use these people for their own ends.)

[scumdog]

Where they? How do you know that ?? Where you there ??? Did you read it in the media ??? If so, why were they never prosecuted?



Just like many rightwing groups I could name ... How come you link dressing in military fatigues and training with "terrorism" ???

Why weren't they prosecuted? - are you silly or just stirring?

And how many other activities apart from terrorism would you link with armed people in military fatigues that are not part of the national armed (or similar) forces training in the bush, using molotov cocktails, anti-ambush techniques etc?

You just KNOW they were wannabe terrorist dreamers and losers, doncha...

[Scuba_Steve]

And how many other activities apart from terrorism would you link with armed people in military fatigues that are not part of the national armed (or similar) forces training in the bush, anti-ambush techniques etc?

Three, 1 of which I do on Tues nights like mentioned

[Banditbandit]

Why weren't they prosecuted? - are you silly or just stirring?

And how many other activities apart from terrorism would you link with armed people in military fatigues that are not part of the national armed (or similar) forces training in the bush, using molotov cocktails, anti-ambush techniques etc?

You just KNOW they were wannabe terrorist dreamers and losers, doncha...

Hang about .. the Solicitor General dropped the "terrorism" charges ... so there was NO ecvidence there .. surely an officer of the law understands that ...

Well - I know a lot of armed people in military fatigues and cammo gear who blunder round in the bush - they call themselves hunters ...

Molotovs and anti-ambush techniques ?? Where's your evidence this occurred .. the only evidence presented to court was possession of firearms without a licence .. the rest ??? No evidence .. stop trying to blind the civilians with bullshit ... some civilians are onto cop tricks ... ...

Dreamers wannabes and losers ... sure ... that's probably exactly what they were ... if that was illegal many people in this forum would be in jail ..

For instance ...Their so-called assassination plot on John Key ??? The recorded conversation went something like:

"We should kill John Key "

"How ?"

"Drop a bus on him ..."

Dreamers and losers Yes ... serious terrorist threat ??? No !!! Fuck me how many serious terrorists talk about dropping busses on people ??? Only in silly cops' minds ..

If every stupid conversation had by bored (and possibly wasted) people travelling in the cars was recorded and searched for shit like that many many people would be in jail ...

[scumdog]

Three, 1 of which I do on Tues nights like mentioned

Paintball don't count - and I doubt you are doing the anti-road-ambush-and-molotov-cocktail bit.

[scumdog]

Hang about .. the Solicitor General dropped the "terrorism" charges ... so there was NO ecvidence there .. surely an officer of the law understands that ...

Well - I know a lot of armed people in military fatigues and cammo gear who blunder round in the bush - they call themselves hunters ...

Molotovs and anti-ambush techniques ?? Where's your evidence this occurred .. the only evidence presented to court was possession of firearms without a licence .. the rest ??? No evidence .. stop trying to blind the civilians with bullshit ... some civilians are onto cop tricks ... ...

Dreamers wannabes and losers ... sure ... that's probably exactly what they were ... if that was illegal many people in this forum would be in jail ..

For instance ...Their so-called assassination plot on John Key ??? The recorded conversation went something like:

"We should kill John Key "

"How ?"

"Drop a bus on him ..."

Dreamers and losers Yes ... serious terrorist threat ??? No !!! Fuck me how many serious terrorists talk about dropping busses on people ??? Only in silly cops' minds ..

If every stupid conversation had by bored (and possibly wasted) people travelling in the cars was recorded and searched for shit like that many many people would be in jail ...

Yer yanking my chain.....right????

[Scuba_Steve]

Paintball don't count - and I doubt you are doing the anti-road-ambush-and-molotov-cocktail bit.

you didn't mention 'road' & I omitted the molotov, tho grenades, flash & bangs are used.
We do practice actual military tactics tho both offensive & defensive; room clearings are definitely one of the bigger surprises until you understand the logic behind it, doesn't seem very intelligent 1st time you're shown how.

[Banditbandit]

Yer yanking my chain.....right????

No mate I'm not ... I have too much respect for you to do that .. . despite the shit I might sling your way occassionally ...

Look - I do worry about what the fuck was happening out in the back blocks behind my place (I do live here) ... but I am not convinced that anything that serious was happening ...

I do know a lot of the people involved .. including Tame ... and I doubt that they were formenting revolution or rebellion ... or terrorism ... I don't know what they were up to ... but I don't believe the hard line propoganda that has been generated ... that's scaremongering bullshit ...

I have seen no evidence of molotovs, or of other shit .. (but fuck - I can make better petrol bombs than Mr Molotov ever thougth of - and have) I have seen video of idiot dreamers crashing around in the bush ... and of what looked like a martial arts training exercise ... or could be interpreted that way ...

I have seen people playing with rather lethal toys - no worse than military small arms clubs do every weekend ...

And look ... Tuhoe have just got a hundred and something million dollar settlement from the crown .. part control of Te Urewera, agreement on many things .. do you think that Tame would jeopardise that ??? He knows there is no way they would get that through armed rebellion .. (some of his wasted and dickhead followers might want to play stupid games .. but Tame is not stupid ...)

[Akzle]

And how many other activities apart from terrorism would you link with armed people in military fatigues that are not part of the national armed (or similar) forces training in the bush, using molotov cocktails, anti-ambush techniques etc?

You just KNOW they were wannabe terrorist dreamers and losers, doncha...

Not so much fatigues, but bullet proof vests, wool trousers and slinging a belt full of weapons...
In an unflattering shade of blue.
wannabe terrorist loosers indeed.

[Akzle]

Yer yanking my chain.....right????

im yanking something...

[Winston001]

Funny thing about Tame Iti. I used to think he was a dangerous hothead with a kinda Black Power mentality and he'd end up shot by someone. However after the "terrorist" trials I rather warmed to him and even felt sympathetic. You are right, he is more intelligent than he seems, and his intentions are founded in deep historical grievances.

FWIW Ken Mair also appears reasonable when he is away from the protest front line.

The irony is that if these guys had stuck to due process under Queen Victoria's law (ie. the British legal system we have) they would see their demands recognised and settled. Which is exactly what has happened. The occupation of Motua Gardens and the guerrilla training in the Ureweras were unnecessary acts which only served to dangerously alienate the vast majority of the public.

Ngai Tahu got 1/3 of the South Island's economy without firing a shot.

[Coolz]

[QUOTE=scissorhands;1130588474]Labour offers no competition, its a farce

QUOTE]

You could be right

[Brian d marge]

Funny thing about Tame Iti. I used to think he was a dangerous hothead with a kinda Black Power mentality and he'd end up shot by someone. However after the "terrorist" trials I rather warmed to him and even felt sympathetic. You are right, he is more intelligent than he seems, and his intentions are founded in deep historical grievances.

FWIW Ken Mair also appears reasonable when he is away from the protest front line.

The irony is that if these guys had stuck to due process under Queen Victoria's law (ie. the British legal system we have) they would see their demands recognised and settled. Which is exactly what has happened. The occupation of Motua Gardens and the guerrilla training in the Ureweras were unnecessary acts which only served to dangerously alienate the vast majority of the public.

Ngai Tahu got 1/3 of the South Island's economy without firing a shot.

and I am right behind them

couple of things I worry about are , IF they do get power of some sort , will it be the same mess as now cept the skin color , tuku morgans underpants

OR will they actually have NZ best interest at heart , aka Iceland

Anyway on to nut jobs in the bush with fire arms . Bling goes to whom ever can find a video of "Survivalists, preppers etc , the nuttiest nut job dressed in cammo wins some bling

Stephen