Buckets fuel rule

[F5 Dave]

Neil the emission from burning ethanol are not the only emissions the production of ethanol creates greater net environmental loss.
Same for all the biofuels and electric cars. If you brewed your own it would not be a commercially available pump fuel.
The relative toxicity is not in doubt i just object to Kel attempting to demonise Avgas's lead content in order to advance is cause.
As a whole unleaded petrol is as bad as leaded petrol . It was pushed away more for catalytic converters than any other reason.
the move to low lead and unleaded is one of the reasons also that fuel is more expensive to refine and the yields from crude are lower.

I am not all that worried either way about the environment (with the contribution buckets make)
i object to the justification and the pushing that it is available all around the country (which it is not)
plus the obvious inconsistencies of the performance in the different engines as i mentioned below.
The same reason you run it in your two stroke and see it as a potential benefit to a forced induction design is why i am against it use.


Anyone can't buy E85 its only available near Auckland.........


What do you think will happen...why do you think the regs were altered to allow for Avgas in the first place.
originally it was pump fuel super max, (with alcohol allowed for NA 100cc 4 strokes f4)



You know the answer to that one your self as does Kel and Rob.
The 125 2 strokes when they were added to the rules had 2 restrictions.
The 24mm carb and the Air cooling.
(remember they were not there originally The rules were 125 four strokes 100cc 2 strokes.)

The idea being that they needed to be handicapped.The 25cc advantage was balanced by the thermal deficiencies and the restricted carb size.
E85's ethanol neatly nullifies one of those restrictions.
That's in essence the elephant in the room dressed as a trojan horse.
I am not against ethanol but i don't like seeing fuzzy quazzy scientific justifications to back it in order for some to gain an advantage.

Sure you can say the other's may benefit from E85, but nowhere as much as the Air cooled 125 will.

Avgas is a great leveler. No real advantage in any particular bike 2 or 4 air cooled or liquid cooled.
Its available all around the country is ultra consistent. It was added to the rules after the initial troubles with the removal of leaded super.
Id be happy for any fuel as long as it is fair.
The unavailability and discrepancies in performance advantages for some bikes of E85 rules that out.

Ask Neil the major reason he runs an ethanol blend...............in his air cooled two stroke.....


I would like to think the MNZ would thoroughly consider the discrepancies in the performance advantages before considering a fuel rule change.


Maybe Billy could explain the background of the addition of the 125 2 strokes.
Why the carb restriction and air cooling only was added as a proviso.

It would likely to be late 90's so might be well before his time, but it will be documented.

And this is a well written & telling post. I think Husi has nailed it here, I certainly had missed the aircooled point.

Btw Av costs about $3 locally & you don't need to buy much of it.

I have no expereince of E85, never seen it here. I'd like to recind my vote as I guess many others would bearing the full impact of it. It was worded to seem to say that you wouldn't be banned from rolling up to the local petrol station & buying some 95/98 or popping down to the local aero club & filling a tin.

[Flettner]

Opps, what have I started?

[FastFred]

Don't ban Avgas.....

Where exactly is Kel trying to ban Av Gas?

What do you think will happen.....

I think we will have a wider choice of fuel, and I don't think that means Av Gas will be banned nor do I think it was Kels intention. I think that was just an attempt at a bit of scare mongering and ms-information on your part.

[FastFred]

For those that can't buy E10 locally and feel they are missing out, put 9 liters of whatever petrol you like in a tin and add 1 liter of methylated spirits and that is pretty much what E10 is. E85 ... well you do the math.

[husaberg]

If we have a wider choice of fuel, I don't think that means Av Gas will be banned nor do I think it was Kels intention. I think that was just an attempt at a bit of scare mongering and ms-information on your part.

It is not scare mongering. It is quite obvious to anyone that actually understands how the rules were devised plus why they are what they are and what limitations are on each engine class design.
Those that chose to under play the ramifacations and use smoke and mirrors to jusify it by saying it is more available when it is planily do so to suit there own adgenda.

Read Daves Post ask your self how often do Dave and i agree.
Put a post on the ESE site asking Frits what the benefits for a Air cooled 2 stroke with a 25cc advantage vs a liquid cooled 100 2 stroke.

[crazy man]

It is not scare mongering. It is quite obvious to anyone that actually understands how the rules were devised plus why they are what they are and what limitations are on each engine class design.
Those that chose to under play the ramifacations and use smoke and mirrors to jusify it by saying it is more available when it is planily do so to suit there own adgenda.

Read Daves Post ask your self how often do Dave and i agree.
Put a post on the ESE site asking Frits what the benefits for a Air cooled 2 stroke with a 25cc advantage vs a liquid cooled 100 2 stroke.

thanks for the wright up l'm still learning

[FastFred]

For those that can't buy E10 locally and feel they are missing out, put 9 liters of whatever petrol you like in a tin and add 1 liter of methylated spirits and that is pretty much what E10 is. E85 ... well you do the math.

... use smoke and mirrors to jusify it by saying it is more available when it is plainly (not).

You can't buy meths down your way????

[kel]

Wouldn't hurt to read this http://news.motorsport.org.nz/search...ent-continues/
and this one http://news.motorsport.org.nz/e85-fuel-approved/ Im not sure how current these articles actually are.

Now I've been trying to find some decent on line info for E85 and air cooled 2 strokes but the infos not there (at least not with my key word searching), just a bunch of hicks talking about oil not mixing, corroded fuel lines etc.
I did find this. Now its a turbo 4 stroke application so the gains are BIG but its a good article for real E85 info http://hioctaneracing.com/blog/2011/...-e85-fuel.html. The power gains for a 125 normally aspirated 2 stroke are minimal. I could get more with the Elf FIM unleaded but it doesn't suit my need no matter what Husaberg may think

[jasonu]

Maybe Billy could explain the background of the addition of the 125 2 strokes.
Why the carb restriction and air cooling only was added as a proviso.

It would likely to be late 90's so might be well before his time, but it will be documented.

I can explain that one.
In the mid 90's the Auckland Bucket entry levels were low enough that the meetings were costing the AMCC money to put on the events and the future of Auckland Buckets was in grave doubt. We even ditched the ambulance in favor of the cheaper option of an onsite medic to save some cash. Myself, Chris Pickett (RMSeng) and later Mike Green (Speedpro) penned a rule change that Mike submitted to the (I think) AMCC to be forwarded to the MNZ. It proposed 125 aircooled 2 strokes(we knew eventually someone would pry good power from them so included the 24mm carb restriction) to allow for the likes of the TF125 and TS/ER125's and up to 145 4 strokes to allow for GL145 bikes. The idea was to encourage new riders that didn't really want to do more to their bikes than plug the bars and pegs and wire the sump plug to have a go without busting the bank on a 'fancy' bike. The rule was later amended to allow 150 4 strokes ie FXR150's. I think it was a total fucking success. It is the class that attracts the most entries, it has engine and frame builders of all levels, there are home built frames, GP frames, 30+hp motors and a thread on KB that has attracted some of the best small engine tuners in the world.

[TZ350]

We have a fuel rule in 24.2.5 that could use updating. So vote - Agree or Disagree its your choice but tell us why.

I voted yes I agree 24.2.5 should be updated and I will tell you why, its not to do away with Av Gas, I think that's an OK fuel too but its so we will be able to use un leaded as defined in the proposed rule change that Billy's looking at and that will probably come into effect. Personally I don't see much cooling advantage in E10 or 10% Ethanol as a cooling agent in air cooled 2-Strokes but I would like to be able to use a 100-108 octane unleaded fuel.

I was asked to vote, and say why, that's my 2 cents worth.

[speedpro]

Wouldn't hurt to read this . . . . . Now its a turbo 4 stroke application so the gains are BIG but its a good article for real E85 info http://hioctaneracing.com/blog/2011/...-e85-fuel.html.

The article mentions that E85 burns slower so you can run more boost etc and evidently it burns cooler as well. I wouldn't be taking too much that article says as evidence for anything.

[Grumph]

I voted yes to doing away with 24.2.5 without it we could use un leaded as defined in the proposed rule change that Billy's looking at and will probably come into effect. Personally I don't see much cooling advantage in E10 or 10% Ethanol as a cooling agent in air cooled 2-Strokes.

Correct - E10 has no significant effect. The calorific value is actually down a tad on 98 I understand too.

Don't bring in E85 as you WILL change the balance of the class and obsolete existing machinery.

Someone said they thought it wouldn't be long before the SI got E10....Historically the SI's fuel comes from a different source than the North. The trans tasman tankers come to the SI as far as I know. Until it's economically necessary for the SI to get E10 I suspect it won't be here.

[TZ350]

Until it's economically necessary for the SI to get E10 I suspect it won't be here.

The rule change does not specify that you have to buy commercial E10, it only outlines a specification that E10 fits into or was made for, the spec, its something that you can buy ready made or make for yourself.

Maybe we are lucky up here as we can buy it ready made, saves a bit of time, fast food fuel if you like, but as far as I can see, availability is not an issue because if you're interested then you can blend your own easily enough.

[F5 Dave]

I can explain that one.
In the mid 90's the Auckland Bucket entry levels were low enough that the meetings were costing the AMCC money to put on the events and the future of Auckland Buckets was in grave doubt. We even ditched the ambulance in favor of the cheaper option of an onsite medic to save some cash. Myself, Chris Pickett (RMSeng) and later Mike Green (Speedpro) penned a rule change that Mike submitted to the (I think) AMCC to be forwarded to the MNZ. It proposed 125 aircooled 2 strokes(we knew eventually someone would pry good power from them so included the 24mm carb restriction) to allow for the likes of the TF125 and TS/ER125's and up to 145 4 strokes to allow for GL145 bikes. The idea was to encourage new riders that didn't really want to do more to their bikes than plug the bars and pegs and wire the sump plug to have a go without busting the bank on a 'fancy' bike. The rule was later amended to allow 150 4 strokes ie FXR150's. I think it was a total fucking success. It is the class that attracts the most entries, it has engine and frame builders of all levels, there are home built frames, GP frames, 30+hp motors and a thread on KB that has attracted some of the best small engine tuners in the world.

yes it bore out to be a good update

[crazy man]

Opps, what have I started?

a oldy foy you he he/ l like old threads http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...Steadman-bikes