Buckets fuel rule

[husaberg]

Bert the cleanest way to resolve this is retain the status quo.........

[twotempi]

First : I am not a current bucket-racer but am involved from time to time with TZ350's projects so tell me to butt out if you think appropriate.

A couple of things to consider

1) Why do you race buckets at all ?? - Answer - Because it's FUN and you enjoy the company of like-minded guys ( and girls ) . SO KEEP IT FUN !!! Don't let your quest for more power spoil the enjoyment of others, although this benevolent attitude tends to disappear when someone drops a green flag

2) E85 ( 85% Ethanol and 15% Petrol ) will give any thermally-challenged engine a bigger advantage than an already well-cooled engine. When Ethanol burns the main byproduct is water with very few nasties. In fact it is the petrol content produces the nasty stuff. However does this fuel give an unfair advantage to a 125 aircooled two-stroke ?? There are ways other than fuel to cool an engine. This fuel is also used in the Toyota TRS single-seat class.

Hint - you don't see Cessna engines just hung out in the breeze to be cooled!! - They are properly cowled to ensure cooling air flow to all the bits that need it.

3) Methanol alcohol and its burnt by-products are accummlative poisons . This alcohol CH2OH is NOT the same a ethanol CH3CH2OH and comparisons are misleading. The caloric valve ( in other works "the energy content" of ethanol is significantly lower than Methanol so the advantage is not so much compared to petrol.

4) The New Zealand supply of Ethanol is provided as a by-product of milk wey, but expect that to change as our milk industry gets sold to overseas investors who want to sell the product to the highest bidder. Just look how the price of milk has increased in NZ !!. Elsewhere in the world it is offered as a "green" fuel which is B....t as much good agricultural land is used so a few can drive cars while others starve.

5) The fuel economy of 'straight" petrol used in a bucket bike is a red-herring. How much petrol does it take to put in your van to drive to a meeting in Wellington compared to how much the bucket will use.

6) In fact in your endurance races maybe a bike on petrol would have an advantage by requiring less pit-stops for re-fuelling ??

7) Any eligible fuel has to be commercially available in BOTH the North and South islands, assuming that there is no bucket racing on Stewart Island.


I think that E10 or E15 is a good viable alternative but E85 is a step too far.
The use of Avgas is OK, but interesting I use a 50%/50% blend of 91 and Avgas in my 250cc air-cooled race bikes for the best performance. Straight Avgas, or using 98 has no advantage over this blend. Also 98 has detergents for cleaning injectors and other stuff in it.

My pennies worth - BUT most inportant remember to ENJOY the racing.

[husaberg]

First : I am not a current bucket-racer but am involved from time to time with TZ350's projects so tell me to butt out if you think appropriate.

A couple of things to consider

1) Why do you race buckets at all ?? - Answer - Because it's FUN and you enjoy the company of like-minded guys ( and girls ) . SO KEEP IT FUN !!! Don't let your quest for more power spoil the enjoyment of others, although this benevolent attitude tends to disappear when someone drops a green flag

2) E85 ( 85% Ethanol and 15% Petrol ) will give any thermally-challenged engine a bigger advantage than an already well-cooled engine. When Ethanol burns the main byproduct is water with very few nasties. In fact it is the petrol content produces the nasty stuff. However does this fuel give an unfair advantage to a 125 aircooled two-stroke ?? There are ways other than fuel to cool an engine. This fuel is also used in the Toyota TRS single-seat class.

Hint - you don't see Cessna engines just hung out in the breeze to be cooled!! - They are properly cowled to ensure cooling air flow to all the bits that need it.

3) Methanol alcohol and its burnt by-products are accummlative poisons . This alcohol CH2OH is NOT the same a ethanol CH3CH2OH and comparisons are misleading. The caloric valve ( in other works "the energy content" of ethanol is significantly lower than Methanol so the advantage is not so much compared to petrol.

4) The New Zealand supply of Ethanol is provided as a by-product of milk wey, but expect that to change as our milk industry gets sold to overseas investors who want to sell the product to the highest bidder. Just look how the price of milk has increased in NZ !!. Elsewhere in the world it is offered as a "green" fuel which is B....t as much good agricultural land is used so a few can drive cars while others starve.

5) The fuel economy of 'straight" petrol used in a bucket bike is a red-herring. How much petrol does it take to put in your van to drive to a meeting in Wellington compared to how much the bucket will use.

6) In fact in your endurance races maybe a bike on petrol would have an advantage by requiring less pit-stops for re-fuelling ??

7) Any eligible fuel has to be commercially available in BOTH the North and South islands, assuming that there is no bucket racing on Stewart Island.


I think that E10 or E15 is a good viable alternative but E85 is a step too far.
The use of Avgas is OK, but interesting I use a 50%/50% blend of 91 and Avgas in my 250cc air-cooled race bikes for the best performance. Straight Avgas, or using 98 has no advantage over this blend. Also 98 has detergents for cleaning injectors and other stuff in it.

My pennies worth - BUT most inportant remember to ENJOY the racing.

I agree with pretty much all of that of then the advantage bit.
As i keep banging on at. The restrictions placed on the 125ac are the carb and the air cooling
an alcohol based fuel benefits this class a huge degree. AS none of them are thermally efficient in race trim.

I asked Frits Overmas to check my Maths he found no fault in it (it was based on Bells book)

I base this on the 85% ethanol mix (using my maths) to have a assumed latent heat of evaporation of around 368 BTU/pound (ethanol is assumed to be 410 BTU/Pound.
Petrol being around 135 BTU/pound.
The may not seem significant, but the correct E85 mixture will end up burning 1.53 times as much fuel.(based on the relative mixtures correct for both in proportion) (this is for Max Power forget lean burn cars)

So merely the vaporisation of the fuel will be removing the EQ of 4.17 times as much heat as petrol.

Yet only adding from its burning 8.5% more heat than petrol.

This same thermal advantage would also be exploitable by a forced induction engine.(you could really crank up the boost)

These same advantages will be to anywhere near the same level with a liquid cooled engine 2 stroke or with a four stroke.

It is a game changer..........The ultimate level playing field un-leveler presented as a gift Horse


Another issue as i see it is once ethanol fuels are legal it makes it harder to simply test for their presence.
Something either billy or chopper alluded to.

Its perverse to change the rules afvantage on class in a level competition when they already are producing class leading HP.
It is also perverse to change national F4 and F5 to a fuel that is only available in the North island
If its availability for Kel with no lead you want what is wrong with simple pump unleaded.
But watch out for the Benzine and the MTBE they may get you quicker than lead will.

IF the rules where changed say to raise the cc limit of the F4 100cc bikes to 111cc or so (From 103.5? or similar)
So they could run 52-53mm strike pistons. without closlty one of custom destroked pins.
That would be a rule change that could save significant amounts of money. But i bet the other classes would cry foul

[kel]

Now in case anyone was wondering its super easy to test fuel for presence of Ethanol , you can look up the procedure on the net or you could just buy test kits ready to go from Alcotane http://www.alcotane.co.nz/fuel-testing/ Only $2.50 per test and it can be done track side. I guess that might just make make it the easiest fuel in racing to police.

[husaberg]

Now in case anyone was wondering its super easy to test fuel for presence of Ethanol , you can look up the procedure on the net or you could just buy test kits ready to go from Alcotane http://www.alcotane.co.nz/fuel-testing/ Only $2.50 per test and it can be done track side. I guess that might just make make it the easiest fuel in racing to police.

If the base Fuel contains no alcohol (which is the present rules for 25-30 years)
there is even cheaper easier tests.....
Water plus fuel and a graduated test tube...........

But why would they want to cheat.
as you say, there is no advantage of using a high ethanol fuel in a air-cooled 2 stroke aye Kel

[twotempi]

testing for Ethanol is easy. Does it taste better with lime & soda water or not.