The role of parents in financial education

[mashman]

I doubt it - Ocean1 seems alright to me and Im pretty good at being a wanker sometimes. But its 80meters not 80 feet - yes obscene but without it I wouldnt have a job. But there is no way there are enough resources for eveyone to have one or to have a trip in one so you would have to take it away from him.

I know what the m stands for. It's a big boat. Meh. Still no reason to take it off him though is it?

[oldrider]

If you think that's al it would take to stop another GFC then you are sadly mistaken about the nature of Capitalism and the major financial fluctuations it creates ...

I don't think it is capitalism (or any other ism) that creates the instability, it is the financial system it's self that is flawed!

All the current political isms use the same flawed monitory system and they all suffer the same instabilities, what is the common denominator for failure!

Add to that, the fact that the money system "major players" always come out on top! ... Go figure!

[Banditbandit]

And finally why not be greedy ??? Our Government just was ... They sold Mighty River Power shares at $2.50 ... some people said they had undervalued the price .. but the answer was "let the market decide" .. .. and people expected the price to rise ... well the market has decided .. today they aere trading at $2.47 .. below the Government price ... and they have been lower ..

So did our Government rip off the peope who bought the shares? I thik they did .. Greedy bastards took the people for whatever they thought they could get ..

And now I see that MRP shares have hit thir lowest point since the share float .. a new record low ...

Not the first time that a Government-owned energy producer has been over-valued is it ...

If people bought overpriced stuff on trademe they'd all be screamign about it .. Would you buy anything off this Government ???

[Fergus]

So for arguments sake, people get everything they need provided for them (i.e. they all work to produce what we all need cooperatively),

Who decides who gets the yachts and mansions and who gets the state houses?
Without money, how will you measure a persons contribution to society and provide to them accordingly?

[Ocean1]

If you think that's al it would take to stop another GFC then you are sadly mistaken about the nature of Capitalism and the major financial fluctuations it creates ...

If you're going to dissagree with me then arm yourself with some facts, otherwise you just come across as yet another ideologist that "kust knows" that can't be right because you don't agree with it.

Let me start you off with some proper facts: Fiscal prudence, by definition is that which maintains a stable financial outlook, if more of the American mortgage defaulters that drove the GFC and the institutions that lent to them had displayed a bit more of that and a damned sight less greed then the GFC wouldn't have happened.

[oldrider]

And now I see that MRP shares have hit thir lowest point since the share float .. a new record low ...

Not the first time that a Government-owned energy producer has been over-valued is it ...

If people bought overpriced stuff on trademe they'd all be screamign about it .. Would you buy anything off this Government ???

The share market is long term and AMP and others shares have all been through the early fluctuations, it is the nature of the beast!

Nobody was fleeced by the government their brokers or anyone else, they entered the market freely and willingly!

It is their own money and they are the ones who are facing the risk those that can't face that kind of heat stay out of the kitchen!

As usual, those that can't stay out and envy those that do when they win!

I am pleased that I am on the outside and that as a taxpayer those that have bought shares have eased my tax dollars onto something other more urgent cause.

[mashman]

Who decides who gets the yachts and mansions and who gets the state houses?
Without money, how will you measure a persons contribution to society and provide to them accordingly?

Ahhhh, the fun questions. The market will decide. Place your order like you usually do and see if you get one. That which you currently have you keep.
Money will not be used in the internal economy, but monetary value in regards to goods/services/effort will be calculated virtually so that we still produce a GDP for our interactions with the rest of the world.

As for who gets the new shit... (Iz gonna lol and lol hard) "business" will. "Business" will still be driving the production and generation of goods and services etc... and as we all rely on them, they, logically, should have the good shit to furnish all of our needs.

After that it's down to individuals and what they want/need/desire/hanker after etc... In the early stages we can use the monetary virtualisation should people start getting all pissy about jon getting a new boat etc... After that, I guess we'll see how we develop.

[Banditbandit]

If you're going to dissagree with me then arm yourself with some facts, otherwise you just come across as yet another ideologist that "kust knows" that can't be right because you don't agree with it.

So ... let me see ... there have been several major fluctuations in Capitalism ... the "Great Depression" ... the Stock Market Crash of the 1980s ... the recent GFC ... to name a few ... all these are facts ...

Go here and read this - I can't summarise it in a small forum post .. and you need to be familiar with at least some of it to understand the macro-economic issues I want to talk about (Yeah - I know - fat chance you'll read it ...)

http://libcom.org/library/capital-karl-marx

Let me start you off with some proper facts: Fiscal prudence, by definition is that which maintains a stable financial outlook, if more of the American mortgage defaulters that drove the GFC and the institutions that lent to them had displayed a bit more of that and a damned sight less greed then the GFC wouldn't have happened.

Hmmm .. So .. 'Merika was trillions and trillions of dollars in surplus when Geo W took over the presidency ... not long after that 'Merika was trilions and trillions of dollars in deficit .. caused by warmongering and dropping very expensive bombs on other countries and paying soldiers millions and millions of dollars in wages for what is economically non-productive work ... an army at war is a drain not a producer ...

Because of that massive deficit there was a major crisis in the country - with resulting high unemployment etc etc ... eased only slightly by an increase in military personel to serve the war machines ... and the move of production to other countries because of the cheaper labour (notably moving car productinm to Mexico . out of Detroit and other Michigan towns ) .. all causing major unemployment and reducing the inability of the population to pay the moprtgages that banks had thrown at them when there was higher levels of employment .. (what is called the sub-prinme crisis .. but other financial institutiosn were affected to)

With regard to the move of industries to other countrries, Marx says this is inevitable ... as industrialization creates jobs .. which creates wealth .. workers use their money to fund education for the next generation .. and so on ... that's what haopopened here ... as each generation gains more education they want more money ... eventually the employers move their factories to countries with a poorly educated workforce - because they can pay them cheaper wages ... in the country where the factories were once running, wages fall, less money is spent on eduction, healthm, etc etc becasue there us les wealth and lower tax take ... and what was once a first world coutry deteriotes to the status of an under-developed country - while the forner underdeveloped countries become the new rich countriesw .. then the cicle continues ...

It's very long term cycle but you can see it happening now .. jobs have gone from Godzone to Pacific, to China, to Pakistan ... China and the other Asian economies are certainly on the upswing - better standards of living etc etc ... and we are at the beginning of a down swing ...

That enough for you ??

[Fergus]

Ahhhh, the fun questions. The market will decide. Place your order like you usually do and see if you get one. That which you currently have you keep.

So ask for it then wait and see?

Money will not be used in the internal economy, but monetary value in regards to goods/services/effort will be calculated virtually so that we still produce a GDP for our interactions with the rest of the world.

So my contribution will have some measure of value?
What use does a valuation of my contribution have if it cannot be used to exchange for others contribution?

As for who gets the new shit... (Iz gonna lol and lol hard) "business" will.

Ah, so the "business" that produces mansions will decide who gets the next mansion? On what criteria will they base their decision? How does the "business" that creates the gold plated toilet seat decide which mansion "business" will receive their seats?

[Ocean1]

That enough for you ??

It's not even an adequate begining. I gave you a statement of fact. You've found some articles that you like the sound of and that contain a few facts, but the statements linking those facts are opinion. Politically charged opinion at that.

The problem in America was private debt. Sure the govt also spent too much, but thatever extent that contributed to the original problem, the cause remains constant: Writing cheques you may not be able to honour.

So the salient fact remains: Fiscal prudence is almost always required to be financially secure. That, and hard work, another trait anathema to the losers that blame "the system" the world over.

[mashman]

So ask for it then wait and see?

Unless of course it's already in the shops. In which case, walk in, pick one up, let the cashier scan it, then walk out with your brand new whatever you were so desperately in need of.

So my contribution will have some measure of value?
What use does a valuation of my contribution have if it cannot be used to exchange for others contribution?

Yes.
It is going to be used. Ya know, the GDP bit, that importing and exporting malarky that'll still require $ to "communicate" with the rest of the world.

Ah, so the "business" that produces mansions will decide who gets the next mansion? On what criteria will they base their decision? How does the "business" that creates the gold plated toilet seat decide which mansion "business" will receive their seats?

Yup, the mansion builder can decide. Dunno how they'll decide, perhaps they'll have a mansion lottery, why does it matter who gets the mansion as long as it's used? There will be local authority compliance to go through . Maybe the same thing will happen with the golden toilet seats, apart from the stringent compliance that is.

[mashman]

It's not even an adequate begining. I gave you a statement of fact. You've found some articles that you like the sound of and that contain a few facts, but the statements linking those facts are opinion. Politically charged opinion at that.

The problem in America was private debt. Sure the govt also spent too much, but thatever extent that contributed to the original problem, the cause remains constant: Writing cheques you may not be able to honour.

So the salient fact remains: Fiscal prudence is almost always required to be financially secure. That, and hard work, another trait anathema to the losers that blame "the system" the world over.

Show me evidence of your facts please.

[Banditbandit]

It's not even an adequate begining. I gave you a statement of fact. You've found some articles that you like the sound of and that contain a few facts, but the statements linking those facts are opinion. Politically charged opinion at that.

The problem in America was private debt. Sure the govt also spent too much, but thatever extent that contributed to the original problem, the cause remains constant: Writing cheques you may not be able to honour.

So the salient fact remains: Fiscal prudence is almost always required to be financially secure. That, and hard work, another trait anathema to the losers that blame "the system" the world over.

Simply declaring your statements to be facts and my statements opinion "politically charged opinion" .. does not make it so ... All statements are made from an ideological position and all from an interpretation of the world around us which is only shared by some people .. (for instance, we have no shared basis on which to discuss this ... clearly we are very different thinkers ...)

The macro problem is that Capitalism always leads to booms and busts ... even Capitalist writers agree on thjis - noty just left wing critiques.

[Fergus]

Unless of course it's already in the shops. In which case, walk in, pick one up, let the cashier scan it, then walk out with your brand new whatever you were so desperately in need of.

Great, free ipads for all. good luck with that. I assume when they run out, new stock will be allocated by chance like mansions?

Yes.
It is going to be used. Ya know, the GDP bit, that importing and exporting malarky that'll still require $ to "communicate" with the rest of the world.


Yup, the mansion builder can decide. Dunno how they'll decide, perhaps they'll have a mansion lottery, why does it matter who gets the mansion as long as it's used?

So let me get this straight:
An Individuals contribution, although measured, doesn't dictate what they receive in return?
Goods and services are free for the taking except when demand exceeds supply in which case lotteries take place?


So it's communism with a lottery twist and free ipads.

Sounds exciting, where do I sign?

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[mashman]

Great, free ipads for all. good luck with that. I assume when they run out, new stock will be allocated by chance like mansions?

The fapple and samdung shit will be a single device with the best features of both, an appsung mebee. Easier and cheaper to produce. Design them to be upgradeable and recyclable and they may well become more than photo taking movie making music playing shit gaming rigs.

The usual supply and demand chain will rule. If the machines are needed and someone is making them, then they'll be available.

So let me get this straight:
An Individuals contribution, although measured, doesn't dictate what they receive in return?
Goods and services are free for the taking except when demand exceeds supply in which case lotteries take place?

True to an extent... In today's terms it would be phrased as, some people will take more than they are entitled to and some people will take less than they are entitled to. All contributions are required to make a society function.
When demand exceeds supply, people will simply have to be patient.

So it's communism with a lottery twist and free ipads.

Sounds exciting, where do I sign?

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

It's not communism, coz communism uses money in its internal economy. The lottery twist may not be how whoever does business decides to do business. No mention of tits and you're in... cheap date.