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Thread: Ecotrons Engine Management

  1. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew View Post
    The easiest way I can imagine is an ECU that has allowance for boost.
    Hi Drew, Yes "Boost" its a good way of looking at it. Thanks for the idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carel H View Post
    what are you trying to achieve? It looks like you're trying to read an analog signal by outputting an analog signal.
    Attachment 336831

    I am trying to read in an Analog signal from the MAP sensor, process it and then pass it out as an Analog signal to the EFI's CPU.

    The Ecotrons EFI system expects a MAP signal from the inlet manifold. This is Ok for a 4T but does not work well on a 2T. Which limits a 2T to only using an Alpha-N map which I have found is problematic at low throttle settings below 25% with my 110cc tuned 2T engine.

    Alpha-N maps are RPM/Throttle position = Fuel required. Simple and work well with predictable air flow.

    My idea is to find the the difference between maximum and minimum crankcase pressure each cycle and output this in a modified form to the EFI CPU as an indication of real airflow through the two stroke's motor.

    If I can find a good way to indicate changes in air flow (charging efficiency) then I may be able to also use a Volumetric efficiency map below 25%, just like 4T's do.

    When the engine is on the pipe, Alpha-N works well but when the motor is swapping between on the pipe and off Alpha-N is either correct or to rich. So we need a way to adjust the fueling to match the changeable air flow.

    Volumetric maps are RPM/Volumetric efficiency of the motor depending on manifold pressure as measured by a MAP sensor = fueling required.

    As Volumetric efficiency (a 4T concept) is directly related to "Charging plus Trapping" efficiency (a 2T concept) then knowing the air flow should be a great help.

    The plan is to use a Volumetric efficiency map below 25% throttle position and Alpha-N above 25% similar to a 4T approach.

    Attachment 336832

    In my test setup the MAP sensor is the Analog input. The Arduino processes this Analog input and sends a 10bit value to the MCP4725 card. The meter is measuring the Analog output produced by the MCP4725 add on card.

    The on/off/on toggle switch simulates the ignition trigger pulse for timing the start/end of each cycle. The trigger is connected to an interrupt pin. The MCP4725 feeds directly to the meter and it is also read by the Arduino on another Analog input pin so all inputs, outputs and internal processing variables can be serial line printed in real time to the PC's screen for de bugging purposes.

    Of course, at the moment it is just a concept and I have no idea if this is going to improve my 2T's EFI system or not until I try it.


  2. #257
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    I did that Value many times and its well worded as in number of rotations for a complete cycle
    Only thing it does is turn on the VE map on
    When I put a scope onto the trigger and coil not once have I got it firing every rotation
    I been back and forward with there tech guys and am exhausted
    ()
    Thankyou for the reply and getting to the stage of giving up on this project all together
    I just need the motor to fire every time and inject eveytime and they gave me an induction coil setup they say is good to 11.000 RPM and I have know idea how
    ()
    Can I as another Question
    Why is the ignition map they sent me for base setting starting at 33 advance at 2000rpm and 10deg advance at 12000rpm and not the other way around ?












    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    In the advanced calibration options there is a field that allows you to select 1 or 4 cycle.

    There are two versions of Ecotrons software. ProCal and the latest EcoCal.

    In EcoCal go to "EFI Basic Settings" at the bottom of the page.

    Select "Variables" at the top of the page and then "Add Calibrations".

    You are looking for "Val_nRevPerCycle" which is the one that allows you to select 1 or 4 cycle.

    Have a look at the screen shots below to get an idea of the changes possible.

  3. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulstermanone View Post
    I did that Value many times and its well worded as in number of rotations for a complete cycle. Only thing it does is turn on the VE map on
    That is interesting, does 1 cycle (2 stroke) = VE map turned off .... and 2 cycle (4 stroke) = VE map turned on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulstermanone View Post
    When I put a scope onto the trigger and coil not once have I got it firing every rotation.
    I would look at the trigger coil signal with a scope just to make sure the signal is consistent.

    My own 2T EFI bike project uses a single tooth 20 deg BTDC and fires every 360 deg.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulstermanone View Post
    ... another Question, why is the ignition map they sent me for base setting starting at 33 advance at 2000rpm and 10deg advance at 12000rpm and not the other way around ?
    Four strokes start at say 10 deg and advance to 35 because of the time it takes them to burn all the air fuel mixture at higher RPM.

    Two strokes start at say 30 deg and retard to say 10 at higher RPM because the turbulent action from air/fuel mixture being ejected from the squish area greatly speeds up the rate of mixture burn.

    There are other reasons too, like transferring some of the heat from a late burn to the pipe to extend the over rev past peak power.

    The four stroke has less advance at low RPM because the VE is very much higher at low RPM, way more than a two stroke, but the VE of a two stroke greatly improves as the RPM increases.


  4. #259
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    Thanks for the reply
    Are you using a VRS pickup or Halls effect ?
    ()
    From what I see of this software the VE table only effective in 4 stroke mode
    ()
    Map sensor isn't needed and really no idea why they wanted an O2 sensor
    Most modern 4 strokes do not use Map to find faze anyway
    ()
    I used a 12 position missing 2 and then also have a 12 position missing one
    I found the 12/2 works the best and tell the system only missing one
    Allows the timers that extra distance to reset but not enough for fault as that is set to 3 in the Cal files
    ()
    I scoped the trigger pulse and every time very good to be honest and shows up well and also the coil pulse relative to it
    ()
    I made up a few good diagrams to help me try and understand the first value as in the offset to TDC pin and after that the last problem was the End of injection angle that really can be interpreted at least 2 if not 4 different figures













    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    That is interesting, does 1 cycle (2 stroke) = VE map turned off .... and 2 cycle (4 stroke) = VE map turned on.



    I would look at the trigger coil signal with a scope just to make sure the signal is consistent.

    My own 2T EFI bike project uses a single tooth 20 deg BTDC and fires every 360 deg.



    Four strokes start at say 10 deg and advance to 35 because of the time it takes them to burn all the air fuel mixture at higher RPM.

    Two strokes start at say 30 deg and retard to say 10 at higher RPM because the turbulent action from air/fuel mixture being ejected from the squish area greatly speeds up the rate of mixture burn.

    There are other reasons too, like transferring some of the heat from a late burn to the pipe to extend the over rev past peak power.

    The four stroke has less advance at low RPM because the VE is very much higher at low RPM, way more than a two stroke, but the VE of a two stroke greatly improves as the RPM increases.

  5. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulstermanone View Post
    Are you using a VRS pickup or Halls effect ?
    Click image for larger version. 

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    VRS pickup with only one lobe on the flywheel.

    I don't use the Ecotrons ignition only the EFI side for fuel injection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulstermanone View Post
    From what I see of this software the VE table only effective in 4 stroke mode
    I am interested because Ecotrons changed my two stroke software so I could use VE and Alpha-N table. I have not tried it yet so not sure if I will actually still have 2T software or they have just activated it as 4T.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulstermanone View Post
    Map sensor isn't needed and really no idea why they wanted an O2 sensor
    Most modern 4 strokes do not use Map to find faze anyway.
    I use a wide band O2 sensor a lot on my 2T for tuning.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The brown line between the two white coursers shows the small injector going lean before the larger secondary injectors take over. Probably needs a bit of injection angle end adjustment.

    A MAP measuring atmospheric pressure is pretty handy on a 2T for automatic RAD changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulstermanone View Post
    I used a 12 position missing 2 and then also have a 12 position missing one. I found the 12/2 works the best and tell the system only missing one.
    I am afraid I can't help much here as I only have experience with a single tooth wheel.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulstermanone View Post
    I made up a few good diagrams to help me try and understand the first value as in the offset to TDC pin and after that the last problem was the End of injection angle that really can be interpreted at least 2 if not 4 different figures
    Yes, I too had to make diagrams to understand what was going on.

    I think the "end of injection angle" is supposed to be degrees before TDC but I suspect it may be degrees before the actual ignition sensors trigger point.

    Anyway "end of injection angle" is when the injection ends, it starts earlier and earlier (degrees wise) as fuel demand and/or rpm increases.

    I found the best position was 180 or BDC where the pipe is supposed to be sucking the hardest. Others swear by ending the injection angle at transfer closing. Probably a mix of both is optimal.


  6. #261
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    The MAP sensor was very useful on my 125 twin. The MAP signal was used to determine which cylinder was where in the engine cycle. Link are looking at doing the same thing but last time I asked it wasn't ready for release. Without the MAP signal being used to determine which cylinder was where I have had to mount a trigger disc and sensor on one camshaft to provide a "home" signal.

    The Ecotron use of the MAP sensor is obviously well sorted as my engine produces hardly any vacuum but I suppose it varies as usual, just not by much. It still worked with 1.4BAR as well.

    The only downside of my Ecotrons ECU was the lack of processing power to handle lots of revs and a little problem with a faint contact between circuit board and case which took me a while to figure out.

    The O2 sensors supplied with my 4T kit were narrow band. They would have been OK for tuning once you were in the ballpark or if you wanted to track minor changes over time, I bought the Ecotrons ALM for autotuning and have found it to be very good. It has a useful "test" output for when you want to calibrate the connection to the ECU. Now I'm using a Link ECU that test function was very useful and the ALM and the Link are a near perfect match. Link have it as one of the options in their software but I used a configurable table to define what the Link was expecting at various Lambda outputs .

  7. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    The brown line between the two white coursers shows the small injector going lean before the larger secondary injectors take over. Probably needs a bit of injection angle end adjustment.
    What I see in that diagram is Injector 0(Inj0) stopping and Injector 1(Inj1) starting and for a short time after Inj1 starts it goes lean. Nothing to do with Inj0 as it has stopped. What that tells me is that Inj1 was not actually injecting fuel initially. If you are still running a fuel supply "to" the injector rather than fuel being supplied from a rail with fuel continually passing the injector, you may have had a small amount of air right at the injector. Could have been fuel vapour caused by heat

  8. #263
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    That looks lean as well. My 4T likes .85 or so Lambda and supposedly 2Ts like to be richer.

  9. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedpro View Post
    What I see in that diagram is Injector 0(Inj0) stopping and Injector 1(Inj1) starting and for a short time after Inj1 starts it goes lean. Nothing to do with Inj0 as it has stopped. What that tells me is that Inj1 was not actually injecting fuel initially. If you are still running a fuel supply "to" the injector rather than fuel being supplied from a rail with fuel continually passing the injector, you may have had a small amount of air right at the injector. Could have been fuel vapour caused by heat
    Interesting. You are right about the way I have the fuel going "to" the individual injectors and not a fuel rail so what you say is very possible. Thanks.

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	337011 Ok who tipped these pictures on their side ......

    I had a look, the fuel lines slope upwards so any fuel bubbles get swept back to the tank by the fuel rails bypass.


  10. #265
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    I had so much trouble understanding how they were thinking but when i turned on my programming head it all clicks to be honest the truth is in the wording that is not very clear to be honest
    End of injection is from the end of injection to the trigger pulse not TDC -Say you want to end injection physically at 180 deg and the crank rotating anticlockwise and the trigger pulse was 40deg offset ahead of TDC so normally you would think the figure should be 140 but infect its 220 --Trigger pulse comes first and then TDC and then End of injection all calculated from the trigger pulze
    The faster you go to this has to increase by 12 deg for every 1000RPM roughly to keep the end point the same of physical injection
    ()
    That i proved out on a 4 stroke and stalled it by reducing the angle
    So when you set that trigger pulze offset most important either by scope or light with zero ignition advance to find TDC()
    ()
    The Trigger to ignition adavnce is just a timmer offsett in the program the same as end of injection -just math
    These things i figured out ok but so tired with trying to stop this software going into 4t phazing and can find a way to stop it
    ()
    Thanks for the info as every little piece helps to understand the software that bit more

















    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

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    VRS pickup with only one lobe on the flywheel.

    I don't use the Ecotrons ignition only the EFI side for fuel injection.



    I am interested because Ecotrons changed my two stroke software so I could use VE and Alpha-N table. I have not tried it yet so not sure if I will actually still have 2T software or they have just activated it as 4T.



    I use a wide band O2 sensor a lot on my 2T for tuning.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20-01-2017 100% 53-65k.JPG 
Views:	20 
Size:	140.0 KB 
ID:	337000

    The brown line between the two white coursers shows the small injector going lean before the larger secondary injectors take over. Probably needs a bit of injection angle end adjustment.

    A MAP measuring atmospheric pressure is pretty handy on a 2T for automatic RAD changes.



    I am afraid I can't help much here as I only have experience with a single tooth wheel.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Crank at TDC - 21deg.jpg 
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    Yes, I too had to make diagrams to understand what was going on.

    I think the "end of injection angle" is supposed to be degrees before TDC but I suspect it may be degrees before the actual ignition sensors trigger point.

    Anyway "end of injection angle" is when the injection ends, it starts earlier and earlier (degrees wise) as fuel demand and/or rpm increases.

    I found the best position was 180 or BDC where the pipe is supposed to be sucking the hardest. Others swear by ending the injection angle at transfer closing. Probably a mix of both is optimal.

  11. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulstermanone View Post
    I had so much trouble understanding how they were thinking but when i turned on my programming head it all clicks to be honest the truth is in the wording that is not very clear to be honest. Thanks for the info as every little piece helps to understand the software that bit more
    Yes, its the problem with Cultural and Language differences making it difficult for Ecotrons and us. Still I like their product because it opens the door in an affordable way for anyone to learn about and experiment with EFI.


  12. #267
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    I do like what they have done and yes very good for an affordable EFI
    I started this engine project with someone else and as they went by the wayside had to find a two stroke injection kit of some sorts and this seems to be the one
    The Engine i have is a new design and injects low pressure into the bottom of the barrel/cylinder and fires every time but it has valves !
    ()
    i will keep working away with what i have and see if i can come up with why it is phasing









    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    Yes, its the problem with Cultural and Language differences making it difficult for Ecotrons and us. Still I like their product because it opens the door in an affordable way for anyone to learn about and experiment with EFI.

  13. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulstermanone View Post
    I do like what they have done and yes very good for an affordable EFI
    I started this engine project with someone else and as they went by the wayside had to find a two stroke injection kit of some sorts and this seems to be the one
    The Engine i have is a new design and injects low pressure into the bottom of the barrel/cylinder and fires every time but it has valves !
    ()
    i will keep working away with what i have and see if i can come up with why it is phasing
    Your 2T project sounds very interesting. I am sorry to hear you are having problems with the EFI system.

    This Russian unit sounds promising. I see they use http://tunerstudio.com/index.php/tuner-studio for tuning both the EFI + DC spark ignition systems.

    Quote Originally Posted by jbiplane View Post
    The SmartEMS light in aluminum milled case start 205 usd
    wire harness with all connectors 68 usd
    5-axis milled throttle body starts 110 usd.
    Remaining sensors possible get from us or from any local shop which sell automotive or ATV components.
    We can prepare complete instalation kit by customer specs.
    Quote Originally Posted by jbiplane View Post
    We used before ecotrons, but had problems with system openess and sometimes it burn out. So we developed our own. We can develop electronics of any level of complexity, if it worth. Says in other my company sharing the same building we make avionics http://uav-siberia.com/en/catalog/avionika/

    In our EMS project we decide save on software development. So everything what can be programmed in http://www.tunerstudio.com/index.php/tuner-studio is available. All algorithms and data tables.

    Ignition part of our system could give you much more tuning options than Ignitech. And using 158 grammes Nissan Denso spark coils give you possibility burn out
    sheet of office paper with spark.
    Quote Originally Posted by jbiplane View Post
    We make our EFI + DC spark ignition compatible with http://tunerstudio.com/index.php/tuner-studio

    So it completely open for experiments




  14. #269
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    ................

    Quote Originally Posted by jbiplane View Post
    Please have a look. At moment we have most of documentation in Russian, but going to translate on English, German and French soon.






    40cc model engine


    Some components looks rude, but they are more reliable than nice looking parts. We dont tested EFI at higher than 10000 rpm, but dont think it will a problem, espetialy using few nozzles.

    Note: O2 sensor can be used in learning mode and disconnected afterwards. If correctly placed survive in 2-strokes for about 150 hours only.

    Easiest way to get additional info is push me by e-mail

    Valeriy Rutkovskiy
    jbiplane@gmail.com


  15. #270
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    A lot of good and interesting stuff there that is for sure
    Have any of the ones you know of on the site done an RS125R Honda with the kit ?

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