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Thread: Ecotrons Engine Management

  1. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedpro View Post
    I've been thinking about a carburetor lately. I need one for my scooter. I thought about a conversion to EFI but it's already a mission and I have an EFI project already.

    Anyway, thinking about the various circuits and where in the load/throttle range they have an effect it struck me that possibly an EFI system could be setup very quickly to mimic a carburetor. The huge fuel tables with all the load cells are really only a benefit if you want to very precisely control fuel for emissions. If you only want to race then emissions aren't the concern.

    What I thought was for the load ranges, say TPS, simply go with 0% 10% 25% 50% and 100% and say 4-5 rev values, say idle to redline with 4 intermediate values. You could let the software take care of calculating the amount of fuel between actual specified values in the cells. The whole fuel map might only have 20 cells. I'm going to try it on my FZR once I get back to playing with it. If it doesn't work I'll just reload the last good config and carry on.
    Riley Will mentioned that when someone set up a succesfull efi system on a gp bike all they did was use the fuel flow map from the carb and then overlaid into the efi.
    they said it worked just as well as the carb and was not overly jerky in response like a 2t could be at the time with EFI
    He put it down to the fueling on an EFI being too perfect where as a rider is not used to perfect fueling.

    Hondas race PGM4? or what ever it was called, had a base map loaded in tuned by honda for all the kit parts, but had adjustment to fine tune it with 4 or 5 separate screws that roughly corresponded to the normal carb tuning idle pilot needle and main jet.
    prior to that there was a similar aftermarket system that was totally tuned with trimpots and screws i think it was call the injec or something like that



    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  2. #287
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    .
    Ecotrons sells a two stroke EFI kit, the problem with their kit is that it only allows for the Alpha-N tuning control protocol.

    The problem with Alpha-N which is a TPS/RPM map it does not allow for possible changes in air flow at the same TPS/RPM setting. Alpha-N maybe works on basic industrial and low powered 2T's, anything that does not rely on its pipe for power.

    Alpha-N is great for power and all positions where the air flow is predictable but totally useless for drive-ability on a highly tuned two stroke.

    On a high performance two stroke the wave action in the pipe collapses when the throttle is closed. When the throttle is opened again the noise comes back immediately but the strength of the wave action and therefore air flow through the motor takes some moments to build up again.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Same TP throttle position and RPM but different airflow's due to the different strengths of the wave action in the pipe. Alpha-N floods the motor when you are trying to exit the corner.

    Alpha-N is only good for near wide open throttle power when the motor is singing and the airflow is consistant. For drive-ability out of the corners a VE map RPM/MAP manifold absolute pressure or similar protocol is required that accounts for changes in air flow induced by the pipe.

    Making power has been easy but drive-ability has been my stumbling block for a long time and I did not know what was making the tuning so difficult.

    Now I know a Alpha-N map on its own is not enough and that I also needed a VE map to get drive-ability out of the corners.

    For the last few weeks I have been trying to get Ecotrons to switch on the VE map in my 2T software for me but it is like pulling teeth and very frustrating. Dealing with their help dept is the best reason I can think of for not going anywhere near Ecotrons. I have found conversations with them often become circular.

    I would have liked to have continued with the Ecotrons, because it is like an old friend and you can forgive an old friend their idiosyncrasies.
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    But it might be time to move on because I have recently found a Arduino based EFI project called "Speeduino" that sells add on boards to convert the Arduino Mega 2560 to a EFI CPU and they supply open source firmware to go with it.

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    The Speeduino add on board also has a development area where you can add your own IO and change the Arduino software code to suit too, so very flexible.

    Its aimed at cars but it also has a 2T option and a VE table. I should be able to modify the software to get a timed crankcase pressure reading for a sample and hold MAP value. For the next step in my 2T EFI project it is just what I need.

    https://speeduino.com/wiki/index.php/Speeduino

    The continuing EFI story, now using a Speeduino has moved to a new thread, see below and follow the link.

    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    Moving on from Ecotrons, Ecotrons is past history now, and I am moving forward with Speeduino for my 2T two stroke EFI project.

  3. #288
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    12th February 2004 - 10:29
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    I've just rebuilt my Yamaha scooter. With the ignition set more or less standard it really barked down low but detonated at about 1/2 throttle. The pickup mount is slotted so I pulled it all apart and retarded the timing about 4-5 degrees. It still runs OK down low and now takes throttle, to the point the front gets light. Given the time and effort to change ignition timing I was looking at an Ignitech but then decided to see if my Ecotrons GPz250 kit I got for my FZR would be useable. I picked off the ignition pickup, tapped and plumbed in a fitting to fit the map sensor to the intake manifold, and hooked it up to one of the ignition coils i used on the FZR. Fired the scooter up still using the stock ignition but with the Ecotrons dummied up next to the scooter. Got plenty of spark and the laptop indicated what I was expecting with reasonable MAP values and a RPM indication that seemed about right. The only software change was changing the number of teeth on the trigger to "1". I'll need to play with the trigger offset parameter to get the ignition to line up with the standard timing marks. Easy to do with it dummied up and the stock ignition actually running the engine. I'll take the fan shroud off, put a timing light on the Ecotrons ignition and adjust away on the laptop until the timing marks match the stock ignition settings.
    Still haven't used full throttle, not even close. Maybe a bit over half and 110K not a problem.
    The other good thing is the stock engine is rev limited to 9,200rpm but this motor is good for 11,000rpm so I'll take the opportunity to bump the rev limit up.
    I haven't been too impressed with Ecotrons but hopefully simply handling the ignition at lowish revs it should be good. Now I just need to find somewhere to mount it.

  4. #289
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    I mocked it up but came across a problem where, if the ECU case was grounded, or I used the -ve of the bike battery and 12V from the bike battery it stopped the motor running when I plugged in the crank trigger connector. Running completely separately with just the crank trigger connected and the MAP sensor I could adjust the settings to get the spark to line up with the standard system. For some strange reason I couldn't alter the timing with the main ignition map.
    I've decided to use the Ignitech DCCDIP2 system I had used on my MB100. It doesn't have a MAP sensor input but does have a TPS input. It's 0-5V(ish) so I'm going to connect the MAP sensor to it and use what Ignitech call the 3D ignition map, except that instead of the variable voltage coming from the TPS it'll come from the MAP sensor. Should work fine.

  5. #290
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    20th January 2010 - 14:41
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    Rob too Late now but late model fords have digital output MAP sensors.

    FORD DIGITAL MAP SENSORS
    Ford BP/MAP sensors (barometric pressure/manifold absolute pressure) also measure load but produce a digital frequency signal rather than an analog voltage signal. This type of sensor has additional circuitry that creates a 5 volt "square wave" (on-off) voltage signal. The signal increases in frequency as vacuum drops.

    At idle or when decelerating, vacuum is high and the BP/MAP sensor output may drop to 100 Hz (Hertz, or cycles per second) or less. At wide open throttle when there is almost no vacuum in the intake manifold, the sensor's output may jump to 150 Hz or higher. At zero vacuum (atmospheric pressure), a Ford BP/MAP sensor should read 159 Hz.
    the BP uses a reference presure atmospheric no ones says it has to be the actual atmosheric it could be tapped to pipe for instance or to crankcase it could be referenced as a go no go and nor

    Another one i found was a ICP which is a piezo based analog sensor that detects acceleration of load its used on ford diesels to detect condition where additional fuel pressure is needed such as acceleration
    https://blog.fordiesels.com/2013/09/...an-icp-sensor/
    it works in conjunction with a IPR or injection pressure regulator


    Ford powermax diesels also use a ebp or exhaust back pressure sensor
    https://www.amazon.com/1850353C2-Exh.../dp/B0192I70Z8 $24 usd
    http://www.diesel-dave.com/vehic/man...1/vt118057.htm



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  6. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post
    Rob too Late now but late model fords have digital output MAP sensors.
    Thanks. those sensors you have shown may be very useful. The problem with Ecotrons was that in their two stroke Alpha-N offering there was no place for a MAP input to influence fueling, analog or digital. And unless I paid $500 USD they would not tick the box for me that would allow me to also use the VE table which is influenced by a MAP input. I am happy to be away from them, they are hard work.

    The Speeduino allows me to modify the board and change the Firmware code itself, it is a whole lot better proposition for a developer to work with.

  7. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    Thanks. those sensors you have shown may be very useful. The problem with Ecotrons was that in their two stroke Alpha-N offering there was no place for a MAP input to influence fueling, analog or digital. And unless I paid $500 USD they would not tick the box for me that would allow me to also use the VE table which is influenced by a MAP input. I am happy to be away from them, they are hard work.

    The Speeduino allows me to modify the board and change the Firmware code itself, it is a whole lot better proposition for a developer to work with.
    Sorry i thought it did only not analoge signal out of the sensor.
    So what was the difference between the 2t and 4t one?
    Have you seen the Delco units the old Comerdores used to run they have a Eprom the VN on has Map they are $60 out of oz and about $50 for the Eprom burner.
    plenty of other cars had them nissian pulsar etc



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  8. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post
    So what was the difference between the 2t and 4t one?
    Ecotrons started with a 4T version that had a Alpha-N map and a VE map and the system could swap between them on the fly as needed.

    They then inactivated the VE map, you could still see it but it did not contribute anything to the fueling. Only the Alpha-N worked and they then sold that as their two stroke version.

    I could not persuade them to turn the VE map back on for me so I could continue my experiments. It only needed a box tick.

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