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Thread: Ecotrons Engine Management

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumph View Post
    Direct injection is banned by both the FIA and FIM...but you never know, Billy may be prepared to ignore that too..

    In fact, Drew, where it is used, the injection port is usually down the bore where it's covered by the piston well before TDC, so I'd doubt if a very high pressure would be needed.

    There are good reasons for indirect injection on a 4 stroke though, not least charge cooling and reducing valve temps.
    I didn't realise the injection point was coverd by the slug. That would explain the funky piston shape I suupose.
    Polemic....look it up

  2. #47
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    Well, in the end I didn't bother trying the EFI again tonight. I am going to wait until I get my new smaller capacity injectors.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IWP043 Weber PICO injector.pdf 
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    My current injector(s) are the Weber PICO IWP043 330CC units. Staged to fire one at low rpm, two in parallel at medium rpm and all three together at full load.

    As it turns out, one by itself is to big for starting and running at light load off the throttle. At this point the injection on time is less than the 2ms minimum for accurate fuel control.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IWP023 Weber PICO injector.pdf 
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    I am going to try a set of these. They are half the capacity and this will effectively double the injection on time at start up and slow running and that will make it much easier to tune the injection map.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The good thing is, all the injectors don't have to be the same size, you can mix and match to get the overall sizing that works best.


  3. #48
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    Ok the word from Ecotrons is .....

    Hi,
    It supports on-the-fly function.

    The variables which labeled “RAM_” support on-the-fly function, so you can tune the data while engine is running.

    Step1: connect to ECU while engine is running.

    Step2: tune the cell value of (RAM_MAP_LdTp_Tps_N), double click the cell and input the value, then press”Enter”, you can see a message on the lower left corner of ProCAL “ Write successfully”

    Note: when you tune the data on-the-fly, please “Stop Measuring”. Otherwise it will not take effort.

    And if the ECU power off, the data will be lost, so you need save the data and burn to ECU after you think the data is OK.


    Ecotrons tech support BL


  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    Well, in the end I didn't bother trying the EFI again tonight. I am going to wait until I get my new smaller capacity injectors.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IWP043 Weber PICO injector.pdf 
Views:	17 
Size:	160.7 KB 
ID:	289354

    My current injector(s) are the Weber PICO IWP043 330CC units. Staged to fire one at low rpm, two in parallel at medium rpm and all three together at full load.

    As it turns out, one by itself is to big for starting and running at light load off the throttle. At this point the injection on time is less than the 2ms minimum for accurate fuel control.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IWP023 Weber PICO injector.pdf 
Views:	14 
Size:	166.2 KB 
ID:	289355

    I am going to try a set of these. They are half the capacity and this will effectively double the injection on time at start up and slow running and that will make it much easier to tune the injection map.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	EFI - 2 009.jpg 
Views:	70 
Size:	233.5 KB 
ID:	289356

    The good thing is, all the injectors don't have to be the same size, you can mix and match to get the overall sizing that works best.

    Golly, the size of that exhaust port is quite graphic there!
    Heinz Varieties

  5. #50
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    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Inlet Port Fuel injector.jpg 
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    When a fuel injector on a four stroke fires, a mist of fuel forms behind the inlet valve. And when the inlet valve opens that cloud of fuel is blown into the cylinder.

    Four stroke EFI components are readily available and on a two stroke people (and I was one of them) often try to mimic a four stroke by fuel injecting into the two strokes inlet but I have since learned that to truly mimic the action of the fuel cloud behind the four strokes inlet valve one has to inject into the transfer port of a two stroke and that the end point of the injection pulse needs to be timed to finish as the transfer port closes.

    It all makes sense when you think about it for a bit. If the start of the injection pulse into the transfer port is a little ahead of the transfer port opening (or open) then that effectivly mimicks the action of injecting behind the four strokes inlet valve.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    on a two stroke at 12,000 rpm you have less than 5ms and 2 of those are used up getting the injector open.

    If you follow the links below you will find four posts with dyno graphs and video of two successful 2T two stroke fuel injected bikes.

    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    Attachment 289908Attachment 289909

    With Flettners guidance and his example of two very successful working bikes, one on E90 and the other on pump gas I have been encouraged to have a go myself.

    The first lessons I have had to absorb are that the timing of the Injection end point is critical on a two stroke and should be timed to end at transfer port closing and the fuel should be injected into the transfer ports, either counter stream like the YZ250 or across the port like the Kawasaki but definitely not straight into the inlet or the crankcase itself. To be successful the full fuel charge has to be inducted into the cylinder on each cycle otherwise you get rich/lean cycles and poor running.
    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    Performance Fuel Systems has great technical articles about fuel injectors. http://performancefuelsystems.com/tech.htm

    Attachment 290013

    An injector does not instantaneously snap open, it take a finite amount of time to reach full flow. 2ms (2 thousandths of a second) is the rule of thumb, below that, the flow is mostly non-linear and erratic.

    Thankfully its better on the closing side as the fuel injection pressure helps with closing the injector’s needle valve so closing is much more rapid than opening.

    A little math ..... 8,000 rpm / 60 = 133 rps x 360 deg = 48,000 deg sec / 1000 = 48 deg/ms

    So at 8k rpm the crank turns 48 degrees in one mille second or 96 degrees in the time it takes to open the injector properly (ie 2ms).

    2ms @ 8k rpm = 96 deg of crank rotation
    2ms @ 10k rpm = 120 deg of crank rotation
    2ms @ 12k rpm = 144 deg of crank rotation
    2ms @ 14k rpm = 168 deg of crank rotation

    If the transfers open 115 deg ATDC then they are only open for 130 deg total.

    So if at 12k rpm it takes 144 degrees (2ms) to get the injector fully open and another 72 degrees (1ms) to deliver sufficient fuel then the injectors pulse width is 3ms and it is energized for 216 degrees which is way more time, than the transfer port is actually open.

    Thankfully most of the early fuel will be a cloud hanging around in the transfer duct waiting to be blown into the cylinder when the transfer port opens, much like the cloud of fuel waiting behind the inlet valve in an EFI four-stroke.

    Attachment 290012

    Green line is the transfer port duration, red line is the pulse width of the injector, in this drawing it takes 2ms to ramp up and another 1ms to deliver the full fuel load. So the injector is energized for 3ms or 216 degrees or for longer than the total transfer duration at 12,000 rpm. The right hand side shows the partial fuel cloud forming in the transfer duct as the injector opens and before the transfer port opens. Thankfully the injector turns off faster than it opens.

    Flettner makes the point that its important, in fact the whole key to successfully fuel injecting a two stroke, to have the injection period timed to end at the transfer port closing.


  6. #51
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    Pg 91 in the manual. I knew I'd seen it somewhere.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  7. #52
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    It gets a bit more complicated. There the 2 tables that have values, one for MAP vs RPM and one for TPS vs RPM. How much weight is given to each is dependant on RPM and a value in another table. See the manual below and the screen shot of my default table. Easy to get lost I think. Note that the manual refers to the VE table. Values in here affect the injector pulsewidth in conjunction with the MAP table and other sensors such as inlet air temp.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedpro View Post
    There the 2 tables that have values, one for MAP vs RPM and one for TPS vs RPM. How much weight is given to each is dependent on RPM and a value in another table .... my default table.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Speedpro, am I understanding this right, in your table, above 98% TPS at 3,000 rpm and above 10% TPS at 12,000 Ecotrons moves from the VE table and looks at the Alpha-N table.


  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Speedpro, am I understanding this right, in your table, above 98% TPS at 3,000 rpm and above 10% TPS at 12,000 Ecotrons moves from the VE table and looks at the Alpha-N table.
    That's what I understand from the manual. The table description is misleading.

  10. #55
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    Interesting rereading the tuning manual how much more relevant some settings become with a little knowledge

  11. #56
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Hi Speedpro, is this the two-way button for making map changes on the fly?????


  12. #57
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    Bit hard to see in the photo. If you are changing the TPS table, or any other that starts with "RAM" any changes are made in real time to the values in the RAM on the ECU. You would want to save them at the end of the session and I've been doing that by simply disconnecting and reconnecting and burning to the ECU when prompted.

    One thing I have found useful is to change the scales on the gauges. Right click in any gauge and enter new values for the min & max of the scale. Makes it a bit easier to see what's going on.

  13. #58
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    Thanks ... my map does say "RAM" but there is no obvious two way indication, I will have to pay more attention to it next time.


  14. #59
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    Pg 96 in the tuning guide
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  15. #60
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    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Advanced Calibrations.jpg 
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    Advanced calibrations setup with two injectors

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    FUELPW1 active and the oscilloscope shows output at injector 1

    Click image for larger version. 

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    FUELPW2 active but the oscilloscope shows no output at injector 2

    I have just tried a really old version of the ProCal software and calibration files, they worked, so its some sort of software glitch in the newer version of software or advanced calibration file they sent me.


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