Ecotrons Engine Management

[TZ350]

Hi Kermit, I think the Scooter alternators are quite good, fairly big and heavy for a 125 but Ok for a 250 thats not running past 9k rpm. There are units that are generators only and others that have high voltage CDI capacitor charging coils as well as generator coils.

[2005bully]

Hi Kermit, I think the Scooter alternators are quite good, fairly big and heavy for a 125 but Ok for a 250 thats not running past 9k rpm. There are units that are generators only and others that have high voltage CDI capacitor charging coils as well as generator coils.

Thanks....

I'll pick out one that looks fairly common and get it coming.

[2005bully]

Hi Kermit, I think the Scooter alternators are quite good, fairly big and heavy for a 125 but Ok for a 250 thats not running past 9k rpm. There are units that are generators only and others that have high voltage CDI capacitor charging coils as well as generator coils.

I have a stator with flywheel coming for a GY6 engine. It is an 8 pole, 12v and has an external CDI pick-up coil. I already have various ignition coils, so I think I'm ok there. Will I be able to patch the signal from the trigger coil directly into the Ecotrons EFI box, and have an output going directly to the coil? Or do I need a "cdi" box in-between ?

Kermit Buller

[speedpro]

As you described on mine, no separate ignition box needed.

[2005bully]

As you described on mine, no separate ignition box needed.

I received the gy-6 ignition. You are right it is a little bulky, but performance wise the weight should be a plus in this application. While waiting to get the rest of the parts from eco-trons, spare time has been spent trying to learn the soft ware. So far it is quite confusing..... Not sure if its my poor chenglish, or some conceptual part of it has passed me by. I hope it makes more sense when the hard parts are in front of me.... Kermit Buller

[TZ350]

While waiting to get the rest of the parts from eco-trons, spare time has been spent trying to learn the soft ware. So far it is quite confusing..... Not sure if its my poor chenglish, or some conceptual part of it has passed me by. I hope it makes more sense when the hard parts are in front of me.... Kermit Buller

There are a number of posts earlier in the thread that may be a help.

The Ecotrons fuel injection system is my first experience with EFI.



A guide to installing and using the Ecotrons electronic fuel injection ProCal tuning software based on the experiences of a complete newbee with no previous EFI experience.

Hopefully all this will be a help to anyone else trying to get their head around the ProCal file and directory structure.

I found the small engine Ecotrons EFI kit easy to put together as everything was labeled.

[TZ350]

.

The biggest lesson I learned with EFI was to use the smallest injector possible.

The smaller the injector the more tun-able the result at low throttle settings. Because all injectors have a minimum on time a small injector can squirt less fuel than a larger one for the same minimum map setting. Ie a larger injector can have plenty of safety margin at maximum power but be to rich at low speed and can't be turned down any lower or leaner because of its minimum on time and as a result it floods the engine at low speed.

[BASS-TREBLE]

.

The biggest lesson I learned with EFI was to use the smallest injector possible.

The smaller the injector the more tun-able the result at low throttle settings. Because all injectors have a minimum on time a small injector can squirt less fuel than a larger one for the same minimum map setting. Ie a larger injector can have plenty of safety margin at maximum power but be to rich at low speed and can't be turned down any lower or leaner because of its minimum on time and as a result it floods the engine at low speed.

This hits the nail on the head and is also exactly why staged injection with multiple injectors is key for high HP engines while still maintaining low end drivability.
By letting small injectors control the low end and then adding the large injectors for up top HP you have the best of both worlds, except the need for two fuel rails etc which also explains why it is seen on most bikes these days.

[speedpro]

Been a while but made lots of progress in the last week. The little FZR is up and running well with the Ecotrons engine management and the turbo. I have been having a few problems, which may have been due to power supply problems though I am running a small lead acid battery and the FZR stock generator and reg/rec. I have added a large car battery beside the bike for dyno runs and modifying software.

Problems:
1 - my fuel pressure regulator partially failed causing a drop in fuel pressure and eventually no fuel pressure. With the slightly different engine and the progress I was making I just thought the need for bigger injectors and greater injector pulsewidths was how it was working out. It wasn't. Plenty of time wasted chasing problems related to this. My suggestion is that you should always monitor fuel pressure. A quick test to see if the regulator has the problem is simply to remove it and try blowing through it. We discovered Rob's spare had the same problem but it was still working but as per mine would have had reduced fuel pressure. The problem I had was caused by a little o-ring inside that had been damaged.
2 - The TPS indicator in Procal stops working unless you turn the throttle more than about half way open. I checked the TPS configuration, even measured the actual voltages and updated the parameters with the calculated values. The cure is simply to reflash the ECU. I've done nothing else and it's fixed the problem and I've done it more than once. I have loaded the last active ".cal" file as well and it stayed working.

I've gone back to the 80g injectors and even with the minimum injector time reduced to 1.4mS it is still rich at all small throttle openings and they can still supply the required fuel at 16,000rpm with only a 4mS, or so, pulsewidth, even with the turbo pushing the intake to 1bar, or 0lbs boost.

[speedpro]

Had the bike on my brake dyno this afternoon. The sole task was to run autotune and check results. First it was hard to start despite having the previous good tune loaded. Based on recent experience I flashed the ECU and loaded the exact same tune. The engine fired up first try afterwards. I still have no explanation for this, I just know that it is effective.

What I have discovered is that autotune has it's own VE & TPS tables stored in the ECU along with a record of which areas have been tuned. That record is in a table which has 20 throttle position columns and a range of engine speed rows. I have my system setup to use the VE table, which is load versus rpm, at anything less than 98% throttle. The record of successful autotune is therefore not totally relevant to how I am using the system. The record of successful autotuning for me would be better off being a table with a similar matrix to my VE table. Having said that it does work well. It is only the record of which areas have completed tuning that is a mismatch. The autotune VE table is updated over a larger area than is indicated by the tuning complete table. Flashing the ECU does not erase these tables. These tables are in no way able to be manually edited but they can be exported to a CSV file. From there it seems, I haven't done it and tried running the engine, you could copy the values to a VE table and run the system in 'manual tuned data" mode using that autotune data. If autotune is "on" you can alter the VE and TPS tables all you like and it will have no effect because the ECU is using the autotune versions of VE & TPS tables. The regular tables would only become effective if autotune was disabled AND you switched back to manual tune data.
What I have found is that the ECU is autotuning to richer than stoichiometric despite the Eco/Power mode switch being in the "0" or Eco position where it should be aiming for lambda = 1. My ALM gauge is trending towards 13.?:1 or slightly rich. I think this is due to a need to adjust a table which defines the output of the ALM to the ECU as being various values of lambda.
I haven't completely sorted clearing the tables and loading a new default, whether it loads the VE & TPS tables from the ECU or whether it loads a "default" set of tables from within the ECU. At some point a few days ago I ended up with autotune tables which were nothing I created. My system is supposed to be for a GPz250 so I think the "default" tables may be suitable as a start for one of them. I will sort that out.
When autotuning we were able to load the engine up at certain revs and load and hold it reasonably constant. Reading the TPS screen gauge and the MAP I could pick which cell would be tuned and filled with green. I could also tell which area of the autotune VE table would be altered. The autotune software varied a range of cells about the particular cell that was active. This made for a 3d chart that had no odd peaks or troughs. More time would see it looking pretty swoopy.

The dyno has not much inertia. I built it to use the brake so the bike is pretty much free revving in this video. Towards the end I loaded it to 1 bar manifold pressure at about 12,000rpm. It doesn't sound like it but you can see the gauges and also the tuned areas in the chart.

https://youtu.be/_5HMp6co4EA

[TZ350]

Great work .....

[2005bully]

I received the gy-6 ignition. You are right it is a little bulky, but performance wise the weight should be a plus in this application. While waiting to get the rest of the parts from eco-trons, spare time has been spent trying to learn the soft ware. So far it is quite confusing..... Not sure if its my poor chenglish, or some conceptual part of it has passed me by. I hope it makes more sense when the hard parts are in front of me.... Kermit Buller

This project had involved fitting an Ectrons EFI on a yz-250 running methanol. I have all the parts in place, with the exception of a methanol fuel pump. After further study of all the calibrations involved. Then acknowledging my inexperience with EFI it seems more logical to start off with gasoline as the base fuel. So I am going to order injectors sized for petro. Will be back posting about this project at a later date.... Thanks to ALL!!!!!!

[Cheesy]

Had the bike on my brake dyno this afternoon. The sole task was to run autotune and check results. First it was hard to start despite having the previous good tune loaded. Based on recent experience I flashed the ECU and loaded the exact same tune. The engine fired up first try afterwards. I still have no explanation for this, I just know that it is effective.

What I have discovered is that autotune has it's own VE & TPS tables stored in the ECU along with a record of which areas have been tuned. That record is in a table which has 20 throttle position columns and a range of engine speed rows. I have my system setup to use the VE table, which is load versus rpm, at anything less than 98% throttle. The record of successful autotune is therefore not totally relevant to how I am using the system. The record of successful autotuning for me would be better off being a table with a similar matrix to my VE table. Having said that it does work well. It is only the record of which areas have completed tuning that is a mismatch. The autotune VE table is updated over a larger area than is indicated by the tuning complete table. Flashing the ECU does not erase these tables. These tables are in no way able to be manually edited but they can be exported to a CSV file. From there it seems, I haven't done it and tried running the engine, you could copy the values to a VE table and run the system in 'manual tuned data" mode using that autotune data. If autotune is "on" you can alter the VE and TPS tables all you like and it will have no effect because the ECU is using the autotune versions of VE & TPS tables. The regular tables would only become effective if autotune was disabled AND you switched back to manual tune data.
What I have found is that the ECU is autotuning to richer than stoichiometric despite the Eco/Power mode switch being in the "0" or Eco position where it should be aiming for lambda = 1. My ALM gauge is trending towards 13.?:1 or slightly rich. I think this is due to a need to adjust a table which defines the output of the ALM to the ECU as being various values of lambda.
I haven't completely sorted clearing the tables and loading a new default, whether it loads the VE & TPS tables from the ECU or whether it loads a "default" set of tables from within the ECU. At some point a few days ago I ended up with autotune tables which were nothing I created. My system is supposed to be for a GPz250 so I think the "default" tables may be suitable as a start for one of them. I will sort that out.
When autotuning we were able to load the engine up at certain revs and load and hold it reasonably constant. Reading the TPS screen gauge and the MAP I could pick which cell would be tuned and filled with green. I could also tell which area of the autotune VE table would be altered. The autotune software varied a range of cells about the particular cell that was active. This made for a 3d chart that had no odd peaks or troughs. More time would see it looking pretty swoopy.

The dyno has not much inertia. I built it to use the brake so the bike is pretty much free revving in this video. Towards the end I loaded it to 1 bar manifold pressure at about 12,000rpm. It doesn't sound like it but you can see the gauges and also the tuned areas in the chart.

https://youtu.be/_5HMp6co4EA

Unless you have an earthing issue shouldnt the ECU be using the same AFR as shown on your gauge? Can you display the AFR from the ECU on a laptop and compare it to the gauge? That said tuning to 13.xx may not be that far off the mark even for an economy setting. I have just put a wide band in my Megasquirted Range Rover it it likes to idle at 13:1.

I might have this wrong but are you saying that the ECU is auto tuning a load(MAP)-rpm VE table by using a Speed-TPS table and associated AFR table? If that is the case wont that lead to all sorts of problems when you throw the turbo in the mix? The system seems a bit strange in that it sounds like it wont let you edit the auto tune table and or run from that table with auto tune turned off.

[F5 Dave]

This project had involved fitting an Ectrons EFI on a yz-250 running methanol. I have all the parts in place, with the exception of a methanol fuel pump. After further study of all the calibrations involved. Then acknowledging my inexperience with EFI it seems more logical to start off with gasoline as the base fuel. So I am going to order injectors sized for petro. Will be back posting about this project at a later date.... Thanks to ALL!!!!!!

Presumably you have read up about the yz250 fletner did, but with a link.

[TZ350]

E85 fuel, fuel injected Kawasaki 350 BigHorn, I think there will be more info on the Foundry thread. They also fuel injected a late model YZ250 Yamaha. Both are running the bigger Ecotrons type fuel pumps. E85 and Methanol are much easier to get right with EFI than petrol because they can be run way over rich well clear of the lean danger zone.

Follow the post below to read about the BigHorn and YZ250 EFI projects

Took the EFI YZ250 to the Epic Events ride Taupo / Napier road yesterday, in the rain. Performed flawlessly though out the whole day. Tuned to give smooth broad power, best for these conditions. It's a lot of fun to ride, this is the first ever "Event" it's been to.

That is the Ecotrons E85 fuel pump you can see in the middle right of the picture.