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Thread: Ecotrons Engine Management

  1. #181
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    I guess I was at first attracted to the complete packag" offered by ecotrons because this wouldn't require selecting an individual fuel pump and injectors and would be "plug and play".
    However, the goal is to run up to 19.000 or preferably 20.0000 rpm.

    Assuming 19.000 rpm, this results in 316 Hz, or 3.16 ms per full rotation. Taking the 1.5 ms of opening time and 0.5 ms of closing time as mentioned by TZ, this still leaves 1.16 ms of "tune" time in each rotation, right? Or am I making some mistake here?

    We are thinking of using one small injector on the crankcase and one larger injector as a shower on the throttle body. Given the limited spare time in each cycle, I do think it will be critical to select the correct size of injector.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peiter View Post
    I guess I was at first attracted to the complete packag" offered by ecotrons because this wouldn't require selecting an individual fuel pump and injectors and would be "plug and play".
    However, the goal is to run up to 19.000 or preferably 20.0000 rpm.

    Assuming 19.000 rpm, this results in 316 Hz, or 3.16 ms per full rotation. Taking the 1.5 ms of opening time and 0.5 ms of closing time as mentioned by TZ, this still leaves 1.16 ms of "tune" time in each rotation, right? Or am I making some mistake here?

    We are thinking of using one small injector on the crankcase and one larger injector as a shower on the throttle body. Given the limited spare time in each cycle, I do think it will be critical to select the correct size of injector.
    If you can somehow get the ecotrons to act as your single is actually a 2 cylinder ,yet is actually delivering fuel on alternate strokes you will have considerably more time available to deliver fuel at higher rpms.
    Only thing is I have no idea if this is possible with the ecotrons.
    Maybe something like a D type flip flop could work although there is likely far more modern better ways.
    That said in the old days some four stroke turbos had continuous injection at high rpm
    They used to call it 100% duty cycle.
    More research required...

    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  3. #183
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    As I see it, the disadvantage of having 100% duty cycle at high rpm would be that we don't have any tuning range left other than the changing the the actual injector for a different flow.

    Because we are starting from a blank page / scratch, we are not yet tied to a certain system or supplier. If the link atom or any other system offers better quality / performance then we can just as easily go for that kind of system. Finding the individual fuel pump and injectors would provide a slightly larger challenge in that case .

    As a side note however, we are already using a zeeltronic controllable ignition so the injection unit will only be controlling the injection, using the rpm from the zeeltronic as an input.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peiter View Post
    I guess I was at first attracted to the complete packag" offered by ecotrons because this wouldn't require selecting an individual fuel pump and injectors and would be "plug and play".
    However, the goal is to run up to 19.000 or preferably 20.0000 rpm.

    Assuming 19.000 rpm, this results in 316 Hz, or 3.16 ms per full rotation. Taking the 1.5 ms of opening time and 0.5 ms of closing time as mentioned by TZ, this still leaves 1.16 ms of "tune" time in each rotation, right? Or am I making some mistake here?

    We are thinking of using one small injector on the crankcase and one larger injector as a shower on the throttle body. Given the limited spare time in each cycle, I do think it will be critical to select the correct size of injector.
    3.16ms cycle time. I would be willing to give that a go.

    Other than the well known issues communicating with Ecotrons help dept which means you are basically on your own with something like a high revving 50cc 2T. But anyway that is what this thread is for, between use we probably can sort anything out. And I like everything else about what Ecotrons has to offer in the way of a complete system with plenty of affordable optional spare parts.

    At the time of ordering I would get several spare injectors so I had a 30 - 38 - 60 - 128 and 246 on hand. Also in the advanced calibrations options there is an option for 1 - 2 or 3 injectors, it might be worth asking if there is a possibility for a three stage system. One of Ecotrons throttle body options has two injector in the one body. So you could easily experiment positioning.

    On my engine the fuel needed at 7,000 rpm is pretty much the same as 12,000 but at 12 the time is shorter and that is the only reason I need a bigger second injector.

    Ecotrons Record function allows you to graph (amongst many other things) total time available for injection and time used for injection. Makes it very easy to see if you can use a smaller injector or need a larger one. The trick is to have a few spare injectors on hand of different sizes.

    In the end if the Ecotrons CPU does not handle 19,000 rpm then simply cut the wiring harness CPU plug off and wire in a Link Atom or something else. After all the other ends of the wires go to the right places like injectors, MAP sensor TPS etc.

    I would start with an Ecotrons system. In the end it does not matter what system you use, it is do it yourself EFI from the ground up and that is what matters.
    - Team ESE -



  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peiter View Post
    As I see it, the disadvantage of having 100% duty cycle at high rpm would be that we don't have any tuning range left other than the changing the the actual injector for a different flow.

    Because we are starting from a blank page / scratch, we are not yet tied to a certain system or supplier. If the link atom or any other system offers better quality / performance then we can just as easily go for that kind of system. Finding the individual fuel pump and injectors would provide a slightly larger challenge in that case .

    As a side note however, we are already using a zeeltronic controllable ignition so the injection unit will only be controlling the injection, using the rpm from the zeeltronic as an input.
    note sure the actual capilities of the ecotrons vs the say micro/mega squirt
    but the link ecu is clearly a more sophisicated peice of kit

    ps tz have you seen this one

    http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=12787.180

    first start no tuning
    More research required...

    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  6. #186
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    Just go with the Ecotrons system. To get going it is a very good deal. You just have to be aware that it is limited. The main limit is the revs. By default the 4 stroke systems are limited to 14,000rpm. You cannot even enter a higher value.
    Their fuel pressure regulators are junk. Do yourself a favour and get a good quality regulator, AND, monitor fuel pressure. Don't expect much help from the help department.

  7. #187
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    Injection times.JPG

    Blue - RPM, Yellow - maximum injection time, Green - small injector, Red - big injector

    Starts with the small injector, swaps to the big injector then runs both at the same time.
    - Team ESE -



  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peiter View Post
    As I see it, the disadvantage of having 100% duty cycle at high rpm would be that we don't have any tuning range left other than the changing the the actual injector for a different flow.

    Because we are starting from a blank page / scratch, we are not yet tied to a certain system or supplier. If the link atom or any other system offers better quality / performance then we can just as easily go for that kind of system. Finding the individual fuel pump and injectors would provide a slightly larger challenge in that case .

    As a side note however, we are already using a zeeltronic controllable ignition so the injection unit will only be controlling the injection, using the rpm from the zeeltronic as an input.
    Adjust the fuel pressure.
    Polemic....look it up

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew View Post
    Adjust the fuel pressure.
    It is what some cars do, 5 bar starting and warm up, 3 bar normal running.
    Factual Facts are based on real Fact and Universal Truths. Alternative Facts by definition are not based on Truth.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peiter View Post
    I guess I was at first attracted to the complete packag" offered by ecotrons because this wouldn't require selecting an individual fuel pump and injectors and would be "plug and play".
    However, the goal is to run up to 19.000 or preferably 20.0000 rpm.

    Assuming 19.000 rpm, this results in 316 Hz, or 3.16 ms per full rotation. Taking the 1.5 ms of opening time and 0.5 ms of closing time as mentioned by TZ, this still leaves 1.16 ms of "tune" time in each rotation, right? Or am I making some mistake here?

    We are thinking of using one small injector on the crankcase and one larger injector as a shower on the throttle body. Given the limited spare time in each cycle, I do think it will be critical to select the correct size of injector.
    If you plan on using a shower injector into the throttle body, it will probably make very little difference if it is timed to the engine cycle or not

  11. #191
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    I agree but there should always be some spare time during a cycle, because otherwise my only option to add more fuel would be increasing pressure or the injector.

    I have emailed ecotrons last week but they haven't reacted yet.

    In the mean time, two images of the cylinder that I'm drawing. Next up is the outer/top cover as a shell over my current part.

    IMG_1481.jpgIMG_1487.jpg

  12. #192
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    Injector Swap.JPG

    It looks like the low speed injector is not true to size. Because the WO2 trace gets progressively leaner until the system swaps to the high speed injector. The injectors delivery is smaller than the EFI CPU thinks it is. Thinking its bigger than it is the CPU turns the injector on for less time than it should so the WO2 shows a progressively leaner mixture. Easy fix, tell the CPU a smaller guesstimated value for the injector.

    The map (and engines delivery ratio) is flat here so the WO2 trace should be flat too. At the swap over point the low and high speed injector WO2 trace should line up without that big step. I can jiggle the sizing in the software until I get it right but measuring all the injectors outputs first would be a bit of work setting up but a good idea.
    - Team ESE -



  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    Injector Swap.JPG

    It looks like the low speed injector is not true to size. Because the WO2 trace gets progressively leaner until the system swaps to the high speed injector. The injectors delivery is smaller than the EFI CPU thinks it is. Thinking its bigger than it is the CPU turns the injector on for less time than it should so the WO2 shows a progressively leaner mixture. Easy fix, tell the CPU a smaller guesstimated value for the injector.

    The map (and engines delivery ratio) is flat here so the WO2 trace should be flat too. At the swap over point the low and high speed injector WO2 trace should line up without that big step. I can jiggle the sizing in the software until I get it right but measuring all the injectors outputs first would be a bit of work setting up but a good idea.
    Back years ago they used to flow test and flow map injectors and then match injectors. Not all were created equal.
    More research required...

    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  14. #194
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    Hard to find anyone to do that in nz. I had to send some to factory pro in us for the 675. Only really an issue when several cylinders
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  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by F5 Dave View Post
    Hard to find anyone to do that in nz. I had to send some to factory pro in us for the 675. Only really an issue when several cylinders
    http://www.nzefi.com/fuel-injector-servicing/
    http://www.injectortech.co.nz/
    http://dieselandturbo.co.nz/petrol-fuel-injection/
    http://www.msel.co.nz/Blog-1/Find-Ou...Injectors-Flow
    I was meaning more to map excactly what they flowed
    just down the road from You Rob
    http://www.msel.co.nz/Contact-information
    More research required...

    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

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