Who bought the Sarin gas into Syria?

[Voltaire]

To start?
Not to sit quietly on the sidelines with eyes and ears closed is a much better start than 95%+ of the reponse from the western world. That seems like a not unreasonable place to start.

Start talking about it with people, make them aware. The more people talk about it, the bigger the stink will become and the harder for them to continue unquestioned.

The sheep of the world need to wake the fuck up and start bleating. The wolves are circling and attacking continuously.

Hi Croc, As bad as all this is, its nearly 100 years ago that all the old men sent the young men off to a war that started out of an incident in Serbia.
Millions of lives later they called time until the next round in 1939, when millions more lost their lives.
Would seem to me its the US and Russia fighting proxy wars as they did after WW2.
I only watch the 'newsotainment" on the TV so not really up on world affairs as reported by the Western Media.
Maaaaaaaa.....maaaaaaaaa.......
May I suggest a visit to the cemeteries on the banks of the Somme and Verdun to anyone who thinks wars solve anything, sobering sight.

[flyingcrocodile46]

I understand 'Mashman' and I know that it started much earlier than that Voltaire. But to ignore or fail to act on knowledge of it in the hope of what? What does that achieve?

Ignorance allows those who push these agendas to more freely and more frequently plow ahead with the murder and suffering of millions of human lives.

Knowingly being ignorant or acquiring knowledge and sitting on the sidelines ignoring it is to condone it.

Apathy in the face of evil (no matter how well packaged) is evil.

[mashman]

Open your eyes to this IF YOU CAN What it does to war veterans

That end of the above doco you posted earlier continues at 43:00.

[mashman]

I understand 'Mashman' and I know that it started much earlier than that Voltaire. But to ignore or fail to act on knowledge of it in the hope of what? What does that achieve?

Ignorance allows those who push these agendas to more freely and more frequently plow ahead with the murder and suffering of millions of human lives.

Knowingly being ignorant or acquiring knowledge and sitting on the sidelines ignoring it is to condone it.

Apathy in the face of evil (no matter how well packaged) is evil.

Funny, that was my question to you . You're right, it achieves nothing... but neither has direct action from recognised organisations that have raised the issue with research to backup the claims. That leaves us where? and whilst I don't mind shoving shit uphill, the hill I'd shove it too is the very same hill/recognised organisations that have already raised the issue. Catch 22. The only way you get to stop this from happening is to become the President/Prime Minister/Premier and have a group of people that will back your decisions.

I'm fully aware of my guilt and my role in allowing this to happen and as has been said by (well there's a debate over who said it fuckin semantics) "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing". I have every excuse under the sun to do as little as I am doing and given that there is no one to raise my concerns to that has the power to stop what is happening, well, anyone that will listen, I'm back to my original question: What do you propose?

[flyingcrocodile46]

Funny, that was my question to you . You're right, it achieves nothing... but neither has direct action from recognised organisations that have raised the issue with research to backup the claims. That leaves us where? and whilst I don't mind shoving shit uphill, the hill I'd shove it too is the very same hill/recognised organisations that have already raised the issue. Catch 22. The only way you get to stop this from happening is to become the President/Prime Minister/Premier and have a group of people that will back your decisions.

I'm fully aware of my guilt and my role in allowing this to happen and as has been said by (well there's a debate over who said it fuckin semantics) "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing". I have every excuse under the sun to do as little as I am doing and given that there is no one to raise my concerns to that has the power to stop what is happening, well, anyone that will listen, I'm back to my original question: What do you propose?

The problem that earlier efforts faced is the same as that of today. Audience apathy and their tendancy to comfort themselves n the face of unsettling topics, by labelling it as conspiracy nonsence.

The answer is to increase efforts to wake up those who are sleeping through it. Keeping it in peoples faces until they actually look at the problem head on and acknoweldge the reality of it. If enough people become conscious of reality then they can effect it. But it has to be a big percentage of the population all around the world in order to effect change.

[Voltaire]

I can't be bothered Googling but wasn't Bin laden appalled by the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan that he went there to fight for them?

Back in the late 30's the USSR and Nazi Germany got involved in Spains civil war, if I recall lots of young men volunteered and fought with the International Brigade.

Bit of a Hobsons choice with those two supporter though.

The world stood by for that one too.

Then there was Korea, where the Americans took on the Chinese via the UN,

Vietnam, China Vs America again,

and so on....

I can't imagine that Syria has much of a functioning economy so its probably the US and Russia again?

The quote about good men doing nothing, attributed to Edmund Burke, it took the Irish 800 years to get rid of the English.

[mashman]

The problem that earlier efforts faced is the same as that of today. Audience apathy and their tendancy to comfort themselves n the face of unsettling topics, by labelling it as conspiracy nonsence.

The answer is to increase efforts to wake up those who are sleeping through it. Keeping it in peoples faces until they actually look at the problem head on and acknoweldge the reality of it. If enough people become conscious of reality then they can effect it. But it has to be a big percentage of the population all around the world in order to effect change.

I agree to a large extent, although if the people making the decisions had listened to the experts in the first place, we wouldn't be discussing it. I fail to see why they would listen to their people as they generally don't where it matters. All I can see is a Turkey/Brazil/Egypt/Jordan/Arab Spring/Occupy/Smaking Bill response from TPTB. Something else needs to take their place before the changes we would like to see can be taken seriously.

The downside is that we're leaving that decision up to the individual. As much as that is what needs to happen, will there ever be enough people to lobby their govt to make the change required? There may well be and for all of our wanting and trying to offer the knowledge, there will still be the same people in the same positions making the same decisions... and as it runs out, they are willing to use deadly force against their populations to defend their decisions. I think enough of us are conscious of the atrocity's that take place and that are done with our silent blessing, but we still run into the same roadblocks. I'm not saying that that is the way it will be, not really, but it is the way it seems to have been. The population need to be offered alternatives. Currently they aren't and those alternatives need to come from the decision makers to gain real exposure imho. As you say, anything we say can be dismissed as the ravings of a conspiracy loon irrespective of the evidence put forwards. I think if you get 1 country to get their shit together, others will follow. It's a lot like fashion. We need the seasons new black and that comes from those who decide what is fashion in the first place.

[mashman]

The quote about good men doing nothing, attributed to Edmund Burke, it took the Irish 800 years to get rid of the English.

It can take a single election to get rid of the white mutha fuckers here

[flyingcrocodile46]

I agree to a large extent, although if the people making the decisions had listened to the experts in the first place, we wouldn't be discussing it. I fail to see why they would listen to their people as they generally don't where it matters. All I can see is a Turkey/Brazil/Egypt/Jordan/Arab Spring/Occupy/Smaking Bill response from TPTB. Something else needs to take their place before the changes we would like to see can be taken seriously.

The downside is that we're leaving that decision up to the individual. As much as that is what needs to happen, will there ever be enough people to lobby their govt to make the change required? There may well be and for all of our wanting and trying to offer the knowledge, there will still be the same people in the same positions making the same decisions... and as it runs out, they are willing to use deadly force against their populations to defend their decisions. I think enough of us are conscious of the atrocity's that take place and that are done with our silent blessing, but we still run into the same roadblocks. I'm not saying that that is the way it will be, not really, but it is the way it seems to have been. The population need to be offered alternatives. Currently they aren't and those alternatives need to come from the decision makers to gain real exposure imho. As you say, anything we say can be dismissed as the ravings of a conspiracy loon irrespective of the evidence put forwards. I think if you get 1 country to get their shit together, others will follow. It's a lot like fashion. We need the seasons new black and that comes from those who decide what is fashion in the first place.

I hear you, but one or two countries won't be enough unless others come on stream real fast. Libya took less than a year to overthrow once the decision was made.

There is a lot of dissent around the world already. I think much of it is expressed as misdirected unconscious awareness of need for change, that is largely unfocused and directed at things like unaffordable soccer stadiums or drug induced rebellions.

It's almost like you have to form a international support network for national coordination of education and action. No doubt such activity would very quickly be labelled as a terrorist group. We need to develop paranormal communications

Your move

[mashman]

I hear you, but one or two countries won't be enough unless others come on stream real fast. Libya took less than a year to overthrow once the decision was made.

There is a lot of dissent around the world already. I think much of it is expressed as misdirected unconscious awareness of need for change, that is largely unfocused and directed at things like unaffordable soccer stadiums or drug induced rebellions.

It's almost like you have to form a international support network for national coordination of education and action. No doubt such activity would very quickly be labelled as a terrorist group. We need to develop paranormal communications

Your move

I am sending this message via telepathy, but just in case... Yup, it takes a wee bit of time for a regime change what with all of the squabbling and positioning to claim the ultimate power (insert evil laugh). However I got back to the Arab Spring and how quickly they sprang to life (supposedly all started by a fruit vendor in Tunisia setting himself in on fire because TPTB slowly eeked away his living). Someone always has to go first and after that the flood gates should, in theory, open.

That's very true. That's a "problem" I noted with Occupy. They were all voicing concern for their own causes and it caused confusion amongst the population as to what Occupy was about. As you highlight, they were all looking for the same thing, change, but what they didn't/couldn't/wouldn't do was to force the issue and as such corruption, inappropriate spending, education/healthcare/welfare reform, environmental concerns, anti-war protesters etc... all remained issues to be tackled individually. Again though, they weren't listened to, moreover they became a target to be beaten and ridiculed by those who think the world works. The decision makers don't have to listen... Friends, Kiwi, Countrymen listen to our fears... and boy do they.

Aye, how to communicate your intentions without being considered a terrorist. There are global support networks out there, from the RSA to The Zeitgeist Movement, but they all have the same problem as Occupy imho. It must be easier to coordinate locally? Although what are you going to communicate? Them other country's iz bad, tell them off would ya?

It always has been (all of ours), although for me it just took a while to figure that out and all I need now is the money

[flyingcrocodile46]

I am sending this message via telepathy, but just in case... Yup, it takes a wee bit of time for a regime change what with all of the squabbling and positioning to claim the ultimate power (insert evil laugh). However I got back to the Arab Spring and how quickly they sprang to life (supposedly all started by a fruit vendor in Tunisia setting himself in on fire because TPTB slowly eeked away his living). Someone always has to go first and after that the flood gates should, in theory, open.

That's very true. That's a "problem" I noted with Occupy. They were all voicing concern for their own causes and it caused confusion amongst the population as to what Occupy was about. As you highlight, they were all looking for the same thing, change, but what they didn't/couldn't/wouldn't do was to force the issue and as such corruption, inappropriate spending, education/healthcare/welfare reform, environmental concerns, anti-war protesters etc... all remained issues to be tackled individually. Again though, they weren't listened to, moreover they became a target to be beaten and ridiculed by those who think the world works. The decision makers don't have to listen... Friends, Kiwi, Countrymen listen to our fears... and boy do they.

Aye, how to communicate your intentions without being considered a terrorist. There are global support networks out there, from the RSA to The Zeitgeist Movement, but they all have the same problem as Occupy imho. It must be easier to coordinate locally? Although what are you going to communicate? Them other country's iz bad, tell them off would ya?

It always has been (all of ours), although for me it just took a while to figure that out and all I need now is the money

Lot of truth there

Maybe all that can be done is to spread the message and wait in hope for critical mass.

[mashman]

Lot of truth there

Maybe all that can be done is to spread the message and wait in hope for critical mass.

Like we have a choice... which of course we do as that's only A truth. Funny, I briefly wrote about how it happened, yesterday afternoon

[flyingcrocodile46]

Like we have a choice... which of course we do as that's only A truth. Funny, I briefly wrote about how it happened, yesterday afternoon

Oh! You're a genuine lunatic. A pretty story linked to a lot of reading.

Will get back to you

[mashman]

Oh! You're a genuine lunatic. A pretty story linked to a lot of reading.

Will get back to you

... Aye, the real deal . As for the reading, meh, I only wish I could write and/or had the time and resources (i.e. money to pay people who can write and think) to make it more interesting and possibly even turn it into a political manifesto. It all takes money to do it properly, ironically.

ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaa

[Ocean1]

The very logical and revealing question as to why they are making ammunitition from depleted uranium in the first instance is completely ignored. What possible reason can there be other than because it is the weapon that keeps on killing?

No secret there, it's more rigid and more dense than lead, which makes it ideal against armour.

Any secondary nefarious intent outside of that original design is almost certainly considered as undesirable by the US army as anyone else, rather than any intended bonus kill points.

Again, I'm not condoning it's use, I'm simply commenting on the utter impossibility of obtaining accurate, unspun information on it's effects, then or now. Like a lot of other hugely politicised topics this century it's all but impossible to get at the truth.