Brick walls, apexing, lane position, gear selection etc

[Drew]

How about, "i'm not young. Let's get wasted!"

I like it!

[unstuck]

How about, "i'm not young. Let's get wasted!"

Sounds good.

[george formby]

Can anyone remember the last bike they saw Kenny Roberts on? My mental image shows him on a bike older than I am! Why the fuck would you take that advice, (meant for race tracks I might add), and try to apply it to modern road riding?




!

It had two wheels with rubber round em, same as Stoners. Point is moot. Can you save a front end slide better than a rear step out? It happens on public roads if the road surface catches you unawares. On a dodgy off camber corner I am happiest getting off the brakes early & on the gas early, even if it's just a whiff of throttle the front will not let go.

Any hoo, my point was that is more controllable to put the bike where you want it with the throttle than it is with the brakes. Yup, the theory is for track riding but for getting round any corner you need to see where you can start to accelerate from not where your braking finishes.

On roads we are familiar with it's habitual to ride neutrally, not a lot of throttle nor a lot of brakes but on new roads I use the brakes to maximise my visibility & the throttle to control the bike from the apex when I find it, the point of maximum lean. Not a lot in my case.

I'm not a racer, fast rider, trainer or anything particularly special but I have learned that if I fuck up a corner I need, desperately, to look where I want to go, lean more & use the throttle to achieve that.

Your also quite right. Why the fuck would anybody take my advice?

[russd7]

Your also quite right. Why the fuck would anybody take my advice?

sorry dude, cant take your advice, pretty much already ride like that anyway, personally to damned old hang feet off or slide off the side of the bike so learnt that even goldwings can scrape pegs succesfully by using the throttle in corners and the zzr hates you if you dont use the throttle, as far as riding neutrally, not normally somethin i do but i must say i had a gentle 500km pootle yesterday in the sun and was probably riding neutrally, no pics so no proof

[Mooch]

get and read this http://www.amazon.com/Soft-Science-R.../dp/096504503X

While not exactly about road riding it nicely breaks down the processes of riding. Read though end to end and start with the basics and work on one area at time. One of the best books I've read on explaining the thought process behind braking , cornering , acceleration etc.

[Grubber]

I'm assuming this is a troll cos you can't be that lacking in english skills and basic physics right?

So what forces the back wheel into the ground? Try this link
What is the definaition of acceleration? work it out and you'll answer the question yourself.
You've already stated that "Acceleration through and out of the bend forces the back down" I've made the assumption (silly I know) that you are referring to the back wheel, so seems strange about asking about the back wheel squatting. Refer to the article in the link and you will see that the back wheel (but not the rear of the bike) squats and pushes into the ground. Just stick your front wheel against a solid wall, rev your bike and let the clutch bite. Your back wheel squats, the rear (and your ride height) rises.
Use throttle on the way in? Of course if you aren't rolling on the throttle then you have engine braking into the corner and all that entails.
Yes I've read it, and absorbed the information that I want and can use into a form I understand. I don't feel the need to parrot the book.

So in actual fact, you are saying use throttle (not accelerate) to allow bike to even out through corner maybe so it has maximum length on axis.
That sounds better.
We still need to accelerate out in order to make rear wheel obtain grip, which is what it does. All this should be done whilst straightening bike upright so as to get maximum grip area on the ground.
The link you gave made the statements pertaining to weight onto rear wheel under acceleration. Converted 400lb weight to 100lb on back wheel under the gas. Which is what i have been saying.
I'm pretty sure we all know what acceleration is without trying to give it some major definition.
Just as an aside, you should do some of the California Superbike School. Think it may appeal to you.
If your definition is similar then i do apologize.

[Drew]

It had two wheels with rubber round em, same as Stoners. Point is moot. Can you save a front end slide better than a rear step out? It happens on public roads if the road surface catches you unawares. On a dodgy off camber corner I am happiest getting off the brakes early & on the gas early, even if it's just a whiff of throttle the front will not let go.

Any hoo, my point was that is more controllable to put the bike where you want it with the throttle than it is with the brakes. Yup, the theory is for track riding but for getting round any corner you need to see where you can start to accelerate from not where your braking finishes.

On roads we are familiar with it's habitual to ride neutrally, not a lot of throttle nor a lot of brakes but on new roads I use the brakes to maximise my visibility & the throttle to control the bike from the apex when I find it, the point of maximum lean. Not a lot in my case.

I'm not a racer, fast rider, trainer or anything particularly special but I have learned that if I fuck up a corner I need, desperately, to look where I want to go, lean more & use the throttle to achieve that.

Your also quite right. Why the fuck would anybody take my advice?

Taking load off the front tyre, reduced it's grip level. However, overloading it will end the same if there's no more grip to give.

It's all about balance. I use the throttle right from letting go of the brake, to settle the bike. Didn't know I did it till the 749 found a neutral on the way into turn one at Pukie.

I don't think it's any harder to save the front letting go than the rear, there's just less time to react if you don't know it's coming.

Wasn't meaning no one should listen to you. I was questioning Mr Roberts theory's validity, in modern bike riding.

[Grubber]

Taking load off the front tyre, reduced it's grip level. However, overloading it will end the same if there's no more grip to give.

It's all about balance. I use the throttle right from letting go of the brake, to settle the bike. Didn't know I did it till the 749 found a neutral on the way into turn one at Pukie.

I don't think it's any harder to save the front letting go than the rear, there's just less time to react if you don't know it's coming.

Wasn't meaning no one should listen to you. I was questioning Mr Roberts theory's validity, in modern bike riding.

Pretty much what i would have said. Gas on as you go through with more roll on as you go out.
You need to gas on just to take up the slack of the smaller circumference of the tyre on the lean anyway.
All about balance for sure.

[george formby]

Taking load off the front tyre, reduced it's grip level. However, overloading it will end the same if there's no more grip to give.

It's all about balance. I use the throttle right from letting go of the brake, to settle the bike. Didn't know I did it till the 749 found a neutral on the way into turn one at Pukie.

I don't think it's any harder to save the front letting go than the rear, there's just less time to react if you don't know it's coming.

Wasn't meaning no one should listen to you. I was questioning Mr Roberts theory's validity, in modern bike riding.

What I was thinkin & what was tapping out last night aren't quite the same thing, shouldn,t post under the influence. + I am just an average joe rider so offer opinions rather than facts.

The bold bit is how I ride & what is advocated, far less brake & throttle on the road I should imagine, though.
The scenarios I had in mind last night, lost in translation, featured a n00b rider coming into a tar seal corner warily due to dodgy road surface, camber, tightening radius, damp & shaded etc or just the fact it's a gravel road. Getting slower & slower & further off line when counter intuitively using the throttle holds the bike stable & on line with no dramas if the speed is appropriate. Spent the last year trying to teach this. The rider "gets" it now & the difference is like night & day in their riding regardless of conditions. Still a bit squiffy on steep downhills, though. Understandably, that's probably the hardest mental challenge.

We must all say "Hail" to the engineers & designers who make this wizardry happen for us, modern bikes & tires are amazing. Did a couple of 100k's yesterday on just about every kind of road surface available up here, mostly crap & it was brilliant. Not so much as a fraction of a moment even with knobblies on damp, shaded, muddy corners kindly supplied by the local tractor drivers.

[buggerit]

Forget the emergency cow in middle of road sceario, what about trailing the rear brake through a corner?

I tried that on some tighter turns on Saturday, bike was steady and solid as a rock. No standing up either...

My lines are similar to Bluninjas,90% of my riding is with a pillion and use a cornering style where I set entry speed by engine braking and
smooth downshifting and am on throttle to some degree through all the corner and in a gear that will give good throttle response.
If I find entry speed to high I trailbrake with maybe a sniff of front brake and more countersteer.
The smooth in ,smooth out makes for a happier pillion as they are not constantly trying to stop themselves sliding forward and you can
achieve good corner speed without them being overly aware

[Maha]

I have the rear brake covered most of the time. A little tap here and there before (and sometime during) a corner if needed, does occur. Whatever works for you really.
Slight pressure on the rear brake (just till you feel it grab) is a habitual for me while cornering downhill.

[skinman]

on the C50 I did trail the rear brake on corners but not on the BMW, completely different beasts in most ways, rear braking corners is common with cruiser riders from what I have observed. the beamer is much happier cornering with neutral or slight throttle on, does not like to slow late in a corner (gets hard to turn) with having a lot more lean angle available I have less concerns with cornering faster anway. Also has a huge amount of engine braking available if required (and if a bit careless with the throttle).
I guess it comes down to what works for you & the bike you ride, different machines require slightly different inputs to achieve what you want.

[Banditbandit]

What I was thinking .. and Drew said earlier .. If I think about it I fuck it up .. there's too much to think about ...

Slow in fast out, use the throttle to control the bike ... what else do you need?

(I rarely touch the brakes ... except in emergencies, or maybe just a tap or two on the front if I think I'm going in too hot ...)

The bikes are so responsive that a small twist of the throttle either way changes the direction of the bike .. counter steering is good too ... but I don't think about that - I focus on the throttle ...

[Banditbandit]

on the C50 I did trail the rear brake on corners but not on the BMW, completely different beasts in most ways, rear braking corners is common with cruiser riders from what I have observed. the beamer is much happier cornering with neutral or slight throttle on, does not like to slow late in a corner (gets hard to turn) with having a lot more lean angle available I have less concerns with cornering faster anway. Also has a huge amount of engine braking available if required (and if a bit careless with the throttle).
I guess it comes down to what works for you & the bike you ride, different machines require slightly different inputs to achieve what you want.

Yeah ... My R100GS PD was like that ... throttle on through the corners ... bugger to ride behind someone - especially if they hold a steady speed in the corners .. suddenly you're in danger of running into them ...

[george formby]

Yeah ... My R100GS PD was like that ... throttle on through the corners ... bugger to ride behind someone - especially if they hold a steady speed in the corners .. suddenly you're in danger of running into them ...

This has happened to me a few times over the years, good, safe following distance, get into some corners, watch the road not the rider ahead & whoa! Whaddya know? Your staring up their baffles.

Just summit else to factor in really, expect the unexpected.

And just to confirm Drew's take on things, the wee DT's rear wheel decided it wanted to have closer look at some flowers in the grass verge today on a dirty, uphill right hand corner. More yee hah than oh feck, though. Cheeky little bike. So yeah, na, yeah, i'm just adding grist to the mill really.