Brick walls, apexing, lane position, gear selection etc

[russd7]

get into some corners, watch the road not the rider ahead & whoa! Whaddya know? Your staring up their baffles

yeah, have a friend that i ride with often and we genrally ride similar lines, problem is when he fucks up so do i
target fixation lol

[granstar]

[russd7]

pic

yeah but when have you seen me hang off the whisperjet like that

[Mushu]

After reading the whole thread I'll ring in with my 2c

Firstly the physics of the bike.
I always open the throttle as early as possible in a corner and continue to open it smoothly through the corner, more pressure on the rear wheel equals more grip, and more ground clearance. The front does fuck all in a corner, if it slips its because you aren't using enough throttle at your speed and lean angle (it is possible to make it through a corner with the front wheel in the air) For those that haven't read TOTW2 it's the opposing pressure from the drive chain/driveshaft that pulls the back wheel inwards and causes throttle to raise the rear end of the bike.

I never back off during a corner (except in an emergency) either stop opening the throttle or use the rear brake to tighten your line.

I don't really think of all that too much though, the most important thing to me when approaching a corner is my line.
I aim to exit the corner in the inside because it is far easier to run wider if you need to than it is to tighten your line giving me a safety margin plus it tends to work out since the majority of the time a corner is followed by one going the opposite way so exiting on the inside sets me up to enter the next one on the outside.

[SPP]

Mushu, for the most part yeah but you can lose the front when on throttle if you try to tighten the turn at the same time... so I’m told.

A simple rule I’ve heard is if you’re adding lean angle you’re decreasing throttle / If you’re decreasing lean angle you’re adding throttle. Never add throttle and increase lean angle.

Lines; Choosing a line that places you to the inside is fine so long as you remember that there’s an opposite lane with traffic heading toward you.

You know that you go where you look, so looking through a right hand corner where you can seen across the opposite lane can lead to you cutting to close or crossing the centre line... I think that’s the “brick wall” thing Mom was talking about. A mate who had done popo pursuit training said to imagine a tunnel around right hand bends and choose a line that puts you in the middle of your own lane at exit.

[Drew]

A simple rule I’ve heard is if you’re adding lean angle you’re decreasing throttle / If you’re decreasing lean angle you’re adding throttle. Never add throttle and increase lean angle.

More of a guidline than a rule. You can be accelerating out of a tight turn, and leaning into a fast turn with the throttle wide open.

Do it all the time at Manfield coming out of 'splash'.

[Mushu]

Mushu, for the most part yeah but you can lose the front when on throttle if you try to tighten the turn at the same time... so I’m told.

A simple rule I’ve heard is if you’re adding lean angle you’re decreasing throttle / If you’re decreasing lean angle you’re adding throttle. Never add throttle and increase lean angle.

Lines; Choosing a line that places you to the inside is fine so long as you remember that there’s an opposite lane with traffic heading toward you.

You know that you go where you look, so looking through a right hand corner where you can seen across the opposite lane can lead to you cutting to close or crossing the centre line... I think that’s the “brick wall” thing Mom was talking about. A mate who had done popo pursuit training said to imagine a tunnel around right hand bends and choose a line that puts you in the middle of your own lane at exit.

Well we are talking about on the road so you keep your speed down enough that you can change your line

If you increase lean angle for any given speed you must increase throttle to raise the engine revs, (the circumference of the edges of a tyre is smaller than the center) grip is the limit at which you can do that, and as I said, keep a large safety margin on the road.

While aiming to exit a corner on the inside you turn into a corner very late so visibility is really good especially on roads where corners are close together

I will admit that on tight right handers my head does cross the centerline but not as much as you might think since as I start to get close to the center I also bring the bike upright but it's easy to run wide when I need to so it's never been a problem.

[Drew]

If you increase lean angle for any given speed you must increase throttle to raise the engine revs, (the circumference of the edges of a tyre is smaller than the center)

If you're on a neutral throttle, maybe. But if the bike is pulling as you lean over, it sorta works itself out.

[Mushu]

If you're on a neutral throttle, maybe. But if the bike is pulling as you lean over, it sorta works itself out.

Yea, I was meaning for any given constant speed you must increase the throttle, if you're already accelerating the engine speeds up on it's own.

[SPP]

More of a guidline than a rule. You can be accelerating out of a tight turn, and leaning into a fast turn with the throttle wide open.

Do it all the time at Manfield coming out of 'splash'.

You�re probably right. The guys who�ve said that were trying to keep us upright.

If you increase lean angle for any given speed you must increase throttle to raise the engine revs, (the circumference of the edges of a tyre is smaller than the center) grip is the limit at which you can do that, and as I said, keep a large safety margin on the road.
.

I understand the tyre circumference thing but truthfully, I can't remember ever having to adjust my riding to compensate. Maybe on long arcing bends I'm not going fast enough to notice much change.

Throttle; I was explicitely told by an instructor to delay my throttle roll because I had a habit of rolling on too early thinking it would stabilise the bike (rolling on before finished setting lean angle). Funnily enough I picked up the habit reading twist of the wrist and was corrected by a Cali School Instructor.

True though, on the road I'm usually slow enough to get away with almost anything.

[Mushu]

Throttle; I was explicitely told by an instructor to delay my throttle roll because I had a habit of rolling on too early thinking it would stabilise the bike (rolling on before finished setting lean angle). Funnily enough I picked up the habit reading twist of the wrist and was corrected by a Cali School Instructor.

True though, on the road I'm usually slow enough to get away with almost anything.

Without copying the whole TOTW, after he states that the throttle should be opened as early as possible he goes on in the next sentence to say you should complete steering before you get on the throttle because steering can effect your ability to smoothly apply the throttle.

[SPP]

Mom, a sure fire way to enjoy a twisty road is to slow down on the straight bits (like really slow down).

Mushu, I read your posts, took them as blanket comments and thought what a bunch of horseshit. The truth of it is, I absolutely agree with them for some parts of a corner but not at all for other parts of a corner.

Without copying the whole TOTW, after he states that the throttle should be opened as early as possible he goes on in the next sentence to say you should complete steering before you get on the throttle because steering can effect your ability to smoothly apply the throttle.

Yeah that bit. Thinking about it, if I'm still increasing lean I haven't completed steering... Enough of this, time to ride.

[Mushu]

Mushu, I read your posts, took them as blanket comments and thought what a bunch of horseshit. The truth of it is, I absolutely agree with them for some parts of a corner but not at all for other parts of a corner.

Yeah that bit. Thinking about it, if I'm still increasing lean I haven't completed steering... Enough of this, time to ride.

What part of what I say is horseshit, and during what part of a corner?

Like I said, I don't want to copy the book over here, but it also says that steering should be completed as quickly as possible for the conditions and only once per corner.

[george formby]

What part of what I say is horseshit, and during what part of a corner?

Like I said, I don't want to copy the book over here, but it also says that steering should be completed as quickly as possible for the conditions and only once per corner.

I've read & watched TOTW I & II & numerous other educational books & vids. The basics seem to be pretty constant & from each I have gleaned a bit more knowledge. In all fairness it's impossible to cover all scenarios on the road, even something as blatant as riding around a corner.

Close to home I have 2 double apex corners & a triple apex corner, they all have undulations & variations in camber, the triple apex has a suspension battering compression just as you line up for the exit if your pressing on. If your following a campervan it just makes your suspension wallow & throws you off line if your caught by surprise.

Never come across the technique for corners like this in "how to" vids & books. What I've learned from them has helped me understand the dynamics & draw my own conclusions.

So I guess I'm saying use what you learn to become wiser not dogmatic. Or perhaps never stop learning is a better way to put it.

[Katman]

I've read & watched TOTW I & II & numerous other educational books & vids. The basics seem to be pretty constant & from each I have gleaned a bit more knowledge. In all fairness it's impossible to cover all scenarios on the road, even something as blatant as riding around a corner.

Close to home I have 2 double apex corners & a triple apex corner, they all have undulations & variations in camber, the triple apex has a suspension battering compression just as you line up for the exit if your pressing on. If your following a campervan it just makes your suspension wallow & throws you off line if your caught by surprise.

Never come across the technique for corners like this in "how to" vids & books. What I've learned from them has helped me understand the dynamics & draw my own conclusions.

So I guess I'm saying use what you learn to become wiser not dogmatic. Or perhaps never stop learning is a better way to put it.

That is a perfect example of the limited value of books like A Twist of the Wrist.