Thinking of getting vaccinated?

[FJRider]

To use the allusion to Freedom of Speech - the classic limitation is that yelling "FIRE!" in a crowded theatre (where there is no Fire) is NOT protected as free speech, as it is known and designed to cause harm and suffering to others.

Even an idiot knows doing such like ... has nothing to do with "Freedom of speech". Are you so desperate to prove a point .. ???

So to, do I draw a limitation on Freedom of Choice - you are not free to do things that harm and cause suffering to others.

I'm NOT talking about others ... I'm talking about your own kids.

In that line of reasoning - The freedom of choose IS just as valid as the freedom of speech, with the same reasonable restrictions.

The freedom of choice as a parent ... exists. You need a court order to change that parents choice ... if it is considered wrong. Not just because of some others opinion that it is wrong.

And it is my position that choosing not to vaccinate (with the exception being as I intimated before) eventually causes harm and suffering to others.

Stupidity of parents has shown plenty of wrong decisions made with good (but flawed) intent.

[Katman]

And it is my position that choosing not to vaccinate (with the exception being as I intimated before) eventually causes harm and suffering to others.

And there's yet another example of your supreme stupidity.

What about all the unvaccinated people who have never caused harm and suffering to anyone else?

[Kickaha]

But anyone calling for mandatory vaccination can fuck right off with their Nazi eugenics program.

Why single out the Nazis, they were well behind the English and Americans and several other countries with eugenics

Several countries pretty much still practice it albeit in a limited way it with aborting downs syndrome babies

[oldrider]

Several countries pretty much still practice it albeit in a limited way it with aborting downs syndrome babies

By all accounts that is an established option right here in God's own! Source: 2 Individuals (that we know of) who had that option offered!

One took it the other did not - nothing wrong with the child once delivered - very unsettling for the other prospective mother!

[TheDemonLord]

And there's yet another example of your supreme stupidity.

What about all the unvaccinated people who have never caused harm and suffering to anyone else?

They tend to get together and suddenly we have Measles outbreaks.

It may not be a conscious harm, it may not be intentional - but we have repeated instances where a group or society has a decrease in vaccination rates, then once that un-vaccinated generation suddenly intermingle with their peers (like going to school) - we see outbreaks.

[Katman]

They tend to get together and suddenly we have Measles outbreaks.

It may not be a conscious harm, it may not be intentional - but we have repeated instances where a group or society has a decrease in vaccination rates, then once that un-vaccinated generation suddenly intermingle with their peers (like going to school) - we see outbreaks.

Are you trying to suggest that every single un-vaccinated person has been (or will be) responsible for a measles outbreak?

[TheDemonLord]

Even an idiot knows doing such like ... has nothing to do with "Freedom of speech". Are you so desperate to prove a point .. ???

You raised the idea of Freedom of Speech, my point was that even that ideal has some reasonable and practical limitations.

I'm NOT talking about others ... I'm talking about your own kids.

Who are still others... The point being there are restrictions on what you can do

The freedom of choice as a parent ... exists. You need a court order to change that parents choice ... if it is considered wrong. Not just because of some others opinion that it is wrong.

Hold your horses there bud. You prove my point - the freedom of choice of a Parent is NOT absolute. There are certain reasonable limitations on you as a parent that a higher power (the tyranny of the state) can enforce upon you.

Thus, there is not absolute freedom of choice as a parent - there is a limit.

My question then is whether or not the enforcement of Vaccinations should fall within that Limit. As stated, it is my position that it should.

Stupidity of parents has shown plenty of wrong decisions made with good (but flawed) intent.

There is Stupidity, there is negligence and there is wilful negligence.

I'm not too concerned with the former, it's the latter 2 that I'm more concerned with.

[TheDemonLord]

Are you trying to suggest that every single un-vaccinated person has been (or will be) responsible for a measles outbreak?

No, I'm saying if you have enough of them, then they collectively become responsible:

[Katman]

My question then is whether or not the enforcement of Vaccinations should fall within that Limit. As stated, it is my position that it should.

Refer post #3217.

[nzspokes]

What about all the unvaccinated people who have never caused harm and suffering to anyone else?

Thats because they are dead.

[FJRider]

You raised the idea of Freedom of Speech, my point was that even that ideal has some reasonable and practical limitations.

True ... with freedom of speech ... you are not allowed to offend anybody's sensibilities ... but they can offend yours. Apparently.

Who are still others... The point being there are restrictions on what you can do

True. but what you can't do is too often found out in a Court of Law. When it's you in the dock.

Hold your horses there bud. You prove my point - the freedom of choice of a Parent is NOT absolute. There are certain reasonable limitations on you as a parent that a higher power (the tyranny of the state) can enforce upon you.

Thus, there is not absolute freedom of choice as a parent - there is a limit.

As the years pass in the new PC world ... the limit is getting much lower.

My question then is whether or not the enforcement of Vaccinations should fall within that Limit. As stated, it is my position that it should.

Not your position. it is your opinion. There is a difference.

There is Stupidity, there is negligence and there is wilful negligence.

I'm not too concerned with the former, it's the latter 2 that I'm more concerned with.

It' ALL stupidity ... just different levels of stupidity.

[RDJ]

No, I'm saying if you have enough of them, then they collectively become responsible:

That's exactly it. Great pic BTW.

[Katman]

That's exactly it. Great pic BTW.

So what exactly is it that you're blubbering about?

Are you worried that unvaccinated people will pass on an illness to vaccinated people? (In which case, what is the point of being vaccinated?)

Or are you worried that unvaccinated people will pass on an illness to unvaccinated people? (In which case, it was still their choice to be unvaccinated anyway.)

[Katman]

Herd immunity.

Herd Immunity is a term that is bandied around in defense of mass and mandatory vaccination. What is it and why is it important?

Let’s set out a working definition of what Herd Immunity is at a functional level in the population: Herd Immunity is the presence of adequate immunity within a population against a specific infection that operates to protect those at high risk of serious infection and consequently, reduce morbidity and mortality from that infection.

Now let’s separate out Herd Immunity, comparing what it meant in the pre-vaccine era compared with what it means in the vaccine era, using specific infections as examples.

Measles: Herd Immunity in the pre-vaccine era

When measles first enters a population that has not been exposed to measles before, Herd Immunity is zero and there is, initially, a very high morbidity (illness) and mortality.
This occurs in large part as a consequence of high dose exposure.
High dose exposure occurs because, in the absence of viral immunity, viral replication is unimpeded in the multiple susceptible human reservoirs in which it thrives. High doses of measles virus are transmitted from one person to the next. Added to this, socioeconomic circumstances contribute to high dose exposure. This includes high population density (easy transmission) and poor antiviral defenses (e.g. low vitamins A, D, and C). An example is the ravage of measles in Confederate soldiers amassed in barracks and hospitals in the American Civil War.
Over time, as measles becomes endemic (constantly circulating) in a population with typical 2-yearly epidemics, Herd Immunity increases rapidly. Natural exposure leads to long term immunity. Immunity limits viral transmission and opportunities for viral replication. Concomitantly, developed countries have experienced an improvement in nutritional status and consequently antiviral immunity. Dose of exposure falls and a dramatic reduction in morbidity and mortality is observed.
As a consequence of natural Herd Immunity, in the developed world measles mortality had fallen by 99.6% before measles vaccines were introduced. A fall in morbidity will have paralleled the fall in mortality (mortality is the extreme of morbidity).
Let us look at an example of how natural Herd Immunity operated to provide age-appropriate immunity.

Infants less than one year of age have a limited ability to generate adequate immunity and are susceptible to serious measles infection.
In the pre-vaccine era mothers conferred good passive immunity on their infants by transplacental and breast milk transfer.
This passive immunity protected infants through a period of vulnerability until they were better able to cope with measles through the generation of their own active immunity.
The vaccine era

Measles vaccine has destroyed natural Herd Immunity and replaced it with a temporary and inadequate quasi Herd Immunity that necessitates a dependence on vaccination along with an increased risk of severe adverse outcomes. Here are some examples of how natural Herd Immunity has been destroyed.

The increasing Herd Immunity associated with natural measles and the accompanying decrease in morbidity and mortality, has been interrupted by vaccination. This makes it difficult to predict how vaccinated populations might respond to, say, a new strain of measles virus that has escaped the ‘protection’ conferred by measles vaccine (escape mutant). Because that population is not immune to the escape mutant we risk high morbidity and mortality from measles once again.
Vaccinated mothers do not confer adequate passive immunity upon their infants (< 1 year of age). Infants are unable to generate an adequate immune response to measles vaccine and in the absence of passive maternal immunity, are unprotected during the first year, putting them at risk of serious measles infection.
Unlike natural measles, measles vaccine does not provide lasting immunity and a substantial proportion of measles cases are reported in those who have been vaccinated against measles.
Boosting of immunity using repeated doses of measles vaccine is not sustained and falls off rapidly. The only answer to this diminishing return that is offered by the regulators and manufacturers is to give more and more vaccines. The vaccine is highly profitable in terms of volume of sales, precisely because it is inadequately effective.
Mumps and Herd Immunity

Mumps is acknowledged to be a trivial disease in children; many do not even know they have had mumps the symptoms are so mild. Mumps is not a trivial disease in post-pubertal males where it can cause testicular inflammation and sterility.

Mumps vaccine does not work. Protection is way below the 96% claimed by Merck and mumps epidemics are occurring worldwide in highly vaccinated populations. Merck is accused of fraudulently misrepresenting the efficacy of their mumps vaccine in order to protect their US monopoly on the MMR vaccine. I would suggest that everyone who has suffered mumps and particularly its complications despite mumps vaccination, has a valid legal claim against Merck.

Mumps vaccine failure is associated with inadequate immunity following vaccination (primary failure) and rapidly waning immunity after vaccination (secondary failure). These factors mean that populations are at greater risk as they grow older. Since severe side effects are more common in mature males, mumps vaccine has made mumps a more dangerous disease.

Natural Herd Immunity, that is, lifelong immunity following exposure of children to mumps in the pre-vaccine era, has been destroyed by mumps vaccination.

Chickenpox and Herd Immunity

The chickenpox virus (varicella zoster) causes a mild self-limiting disease in healthy children. The virus frequently establishes latent infection in the cell bodies of sensory nerve roots where it has the potential to episodically reactivate and cause shingles, a very painful and debilitating condition. Shingles can cause blindness. Historically, shingles was an uncommon disease occurring in, for example, people with immune deficiency due to cancer or immunosuppressive drug therapy.

Reactivation of zoster is inhibited by an adequate level of immunity to this virus which, in turn, is maintained by boosting of immunity in parents and grandparents by re-exposure via children with chickenpox. Natural epidemics of chickenpox maintained Herd Immunity by ‘wild-type boosting’ (referring to the natural virus) of adults which prevented shingles in otherwise healthy individuals. This is no longer the case.

Widespread chickenpox vaccination has removed natural Herd Immunity by preventing epidemics, eliminating ‘wild-type’ boosting, and allowing immunity to fall in individuals to the point where shingles is now much more common, occurring in young, apparently healthy people. Vaccination has created a new epidemic to which Merck’s response is, ‘we’ve created a market; now let’s make a vaccine to prevent shingles.’

[Katman]

http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/20...sell-blaylock/