Thinking of getting vaccinated?

[FJRider]

Promoting demonstrably false information ...

He promotes his opinion ... nothing more. He has no input or influence on any of the parents or guardians of any children at risk. Yet you continue to accuse him of being at fault ...

You admit to exceeding posted speed limits ... that could be construed as encouraging unlawful behavior ... thus responsible for some of the deaths on the roads of New Zealand.

Is it Fair? Well, That's an interesting concept - because whether or not it's fair depends on the degree of Complicity with the action.

Degree of complicity ... ?? How often do you exceed the speed limits ... ???

Right - Both are to guard someone vulnerable against potential Harm. One is mandated, one is not - you say the difference is a matter of Conscience: For you, what is the underlying philosophical difference (as you see it) that requires different courses of action?

Risk of prosecution ...

Right - now what if his action to jump, doesn't actually effect him, but instead could cause someone else, most likely a child, serious injury or Death - would you still let him do it?

What if ..??? ... is that all you've got ...

Sounds an awful lot like an Appeal to Legislation: "It's not against the law, therefore it must be okay" - was Slavery bad? There are many things that the Law says I have to do that I don't particularly like - Paying Taxes (for example) - yet, I acknowledge that these things are the cost of entry, to gain all the benefits of Society. So from that we accept certain limitations on individual freedom, in order to have a functional society. The Question is - is this one of those Areas where a limitation should be applied.

You are just another citizen of this country ... that picks and chooses which part of the legislation they choose to comply with (or not). Usually with the certainty of being caught an element in deciding factor not to comply with the law. Nothing we haven't already noticed ...

If you want my full honest opinion ...

You never gave it in the past ... and you expect us to believe you now ...

when enough people fail to make the correct choice and end up Harming others, the government has to step in.

But in the meantime ... you chose to blame those not involved with the decisions that may have caused harm.

Right - so you ask for Facts, then proceed to summarily dismiss them...

What is lacking is your proof of Katmans conspiracy to kill. All you have his stated opinion.

To be honest, I think the only way to convince Anti-Vaxxers is to have them hold their own child in their arms, whilst the Child is dying from a preventable disease, the sad thing is - there are some that I don't think would even be convinced by that.

A parent holding their child as it dies from the result of that parents excessive speed ... fails to prevent that parent exceeding posted speed limits in the future. Your theory leaves a lot to be desired. Like admitting fault and responsibility by those directly involved with the deaths.

Glad you agree, so if the above is true - it stands to reason that in some circumstances, a small amount of unavoidable death in the pursuit of greater outcome IS acceptable.

Death (in most cases) is due to multiple factors ... only a few of those are usually known prior to a death. Especially on the roads of NZ. Do you think this might happen in the matter of vaccinations ??? Would not getting a vaccination be the sole cause of death ... ??

what would be needed would be a Test Case in the High Courts to see if Legal Precedent could be set - that would require many thousands of Man hours and hundreds of Thousands of Dollars I simply do not have.

Start a "Givealittle" page ...

Well that's just being Petty, comparing similar countries (where the data IS available) is a valid technique.

Petty ... : Valid .. debatable ... ?? ... but Legal ... if accusations are true. But if found to be false accusations ... expensive.

Well, there's no such thing as truly precise figures, all figures have elements of uncertainty about them.

The belief of statistics entirely depends on the statisticians ability to reduce (or remove) the elements of uncertainty.

That's a loaded question ...

You noticed ...

[husaberg]

Do yourself a favour and read up on the pharmacological uses of polysorbate 80.

I am doing you a favour endulging your latest misdirected conspiacy theory

to associate a very common minor ingredient commonly used in food and vaccines.
With any comparable studies or use that produced scientifically proven harm at a dose rate comparable to that used in a vaccine.
So if you cant actually say what your issue is i am picking you don't have anything factual.
Or you are too afraid as you suspect of your latest pet theory is what all your others have been
A false accusation made with no scientific basis ie the usual massive over exaggeration of effects of a substance
used in another way, delivered in a totally different manner, at a totally different dose rate

[Katman]

I am doing you a favour endulging your latest misdirected conspiacy theory

to associate a very common minor ingredient commonly used in food and vaccines.
With any comparable studies or use that produced scientifically proven harm at a dose rate comparable to that used in a vaccine.
So if you cant actually say what your issue is i am picking you don't have anything factual.
Or you are too afraid as you suspect of your latest pet theory is what all your others have been
A false accusation made with no scientific basis ie the usual massive over exaggeration of effects of a substance
used in another way, delivered in a totally different manner, at a totally different dose rate

You sound seriously fucking retarded.

[husaberg]

You sound seriously fucking retarded.

Retarded would be throwing out names of compounds thenvacting ike there use in vaccines was a issue while not being able to provide any credible evidence of their use in vaccines is actually dangerous or harmful.
As you haven't despite being asked three times now, its pretty clear you cant produce anything creditable or comparable or scientific.

[Katman]

https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/arti.../ra/c6ra27242h

[husaberg]

https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/arti.../ra/c6ra27242h

So....
As i said comparable.
1 dogs have a significantly faster metabolic rate thn humans
2 Anaphylac reactions to vaccinations in Humans are 1/ million vs death of diseases which they are bweing vaccinated against is hundreds of times more likely to occur.
3 The dose rate as you were harping on about the ability to distrupt the blood brain barrier we know this as its part of ongoing research into treating brain tumours in cancer patients.
4 We also know that to induce this effect in humans requires a dose 2700 times higher that what is found in vaccine containing polysorbate 80.http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/components-DTaP.htm
5 if you go to the materials used in the study and go to the product number you sited they also contain polysorbate 80 compounds that are notrated as inject-able pharmaceutical grade compounds. vaccine use inject-able approved compounds exclusively.
6 without using compounds such as polysorbate 80 vaccines would not be as effective because the ingrediants would fail to mix and stay in suspension
Also your ice creams would partially freeze into ice crystals and the components would settle out much like what hppens if you leave whipped cream in a bowl in the fridge for a week.

[Katman]

And the obvious question that should be asked......

Is the polysorbate 80 responsible for the abnormally high levels of aluminium found in the brain of autistic people?

http://vaccinepapers.org/high-alumin...tistic-brains/

[husaberg]

And the obvious question that should asked......

Is the polysorbate 80 responsible for the abnormally high levels of aluminium found in the brain of autistic people?

http://vaccinepapers.org/high-alumin...tistic-brains/

but to draw that conclusion you would first have to ignore 2700 times Higher levels are needed of polysorbate 80 than are actually contained in VACCINATION or the fact Autism has no correlation with vaccination at all.
IN FACT QUITE THE OPPOSITE AS WE KNOW WAKEFEILD MADE UP HIS WORK AND DOCTORED THE RESULTS.
WE ALSO KNOW FROM JAPANS RESULTS THAT THERE IS NO CORRELATION between autism and vaccination.

So what you are calling the obvious question is not an obvious question at all, or anything obvious to do to do with Vaccination which in case you missed it. Vaccination is the subject of the thread.
but it appears you are fueling up the SS Narcisistic on a conspiracy fishing expedition with no map, no GPS, no bait, no hooks, no fish finder,or any oher navigational aids or it appears a captain with a clear sense of direction but just a massive trawler net.

[Katman]

but to draw that conclusion

I'm not drawing a conclusion.

I'm asking a question.

And it's a question that you sure as fuck don't have the definitive answer to.

[Katman]

but to draw that conclusion you would first have to ignore 2700 times Higher levels are needed of polysorbate 80 than are actually contained in VACCINATION or the fact Autism has no correlation with vaccination at all.
IN FACT QUITE THE OPPOSITE AS WE KNOW WAKEFEILD MADE UP HIS WORK AND DOCTORED THE RESULTS.
WE ALSO KNOW FROM JAPANS RESULTS THAT THERE IS NO CORRELATION between autism and vaccination.

Is there a correlation between autism and excessive capitalisation?

You and TDL would suggest so.

[husaberg]

I'm not drawing a conclusion.

I'm asking a question.

And it's a question that you sure as fuck don't have the definitive answer to.

The definitive answer ist its clear you don't have a clue or you wouldn't be asking such stupid question or trying to make such comparisons in a thread about vaccination.
As i have pointed out now three times John Hopkins medical researchers have shown it takes levels of polysorbate 80 2700 times higher than are contained in Vaccination to Bridge the BBB
Go start a thread about autism if that is the subject you wish to pursue. Only everyone knows that is not what you will do you would rather troll arrond taking stuff out of context and spread arround misinformation.

No, you caught autism instead.

Minus the mercury, aluminium, polysorbate 80, formaldehyde etc. etc.

Not injected into them though.

There's this thing called the blood/brain barrier.

Polysorbate 80 is used to overcome that barrier.

It's predicated on scientific study.

Look it up.

Here's an idea for some of you.....

Google something along the lines of 'studies showing the synergistic relationship between different vaccine ingredients' and let us know what you find.

'Cos I haven't managed to find anything in all my searching so far.

I'm not basing my statement on any particular study.

I'm saying that one of the uses of polysorbate 80 in pharmacology is to get certain medication past the blood brain barrier.

Don't just take my word for it though. Google 'polysorbate 80 blood brain barrier'.

Dude, google it.

There are scientific studies out there.

Like I've said, you seem to struggle with basic English comprehension.

Anyhow, have you learned anything about polysorbate 80 yet?

I used them exactly as I intended to use them.

The post where I said "it's predicated on scientific study" means exactly that - predicated on (the field of) scientific study. (Note the singular use of the word study - without the word 'a' before the word scientific).

The post were I said there are scientific studies out there means exactly that - there are scientific studies out there that show polysorbate 80 is used to pass certain medications through the blood brain barrier.

Clear now?

I'm assuming you don't inject your ice-cream.

Do yourself a favour and read up on the pharmacological uses of polysorbate 80.

But instead of that you wont you will as normal continue to post yet another conspiracy flavour of the month in a thread where you keep banging on about autism vaccination and Wakefeild
When its obvious to anyone its been continually and statistically proven to anyone with half a brain that there is no correlation between vaccination and Autism.
So the question you say you are asking is either pathetically of topic or its just as i said another Voyage of the SS narcissistic where you are trawling the bottom as normal.

[Katman]

As i have pointed out now three times John Hopkins medical researchers have shown it takes levels of polysorbate 80 2700 times higher than are contained in Vaccination to Bridge the BBB.

Did you get that information from something John Hopkins researchers have published or did you just get it from Scientist Abe's blog site?

https://scientistabe.wordpress.com/2...ve-dissonance/

[husaberg]

Did you get that information from something John Hopkins researchers have published or did you just get it from Scientist Abe's blog site?

https://scientistabe.wordpress.com/2...ve-dissonance/

i posted the link to the John Hopkins research paper. i have no idea whether it was that site or any of the others i have read.
But i notice you don't faulthis maths or the original paper.
Nor have you commented on the fact that the data you linked involed injection non injectable polysolbate 80.
You wouldn't have picked it out but i found it in about 45 seconds just by checking the spec sheets
The fact that you continue to post the tripe you do about autism and Vaccination shows you are not interested in facts or logic
You only either want to troll and spread misinformation or more likely you are that gullible the gallons of conspiracy kool aid you have drinking is actually 100% polysolbate 80
There are plenty of sites that debunk the crap that the antivax oinks have been posting on the net that gullible conspiratards like you lap up, the funniest is the ones where the antivaxers try and make out its actually in there as a contraceptive.
From memory that one was so misrepresented it involved the need to give a baby 4000 doses of Vaccine directly into the womb to replicate the trial done on hamsters that resulted in a loss or fertility.

[Katman]

i posted the link to the John Hopkins research paper.

No, the link you posted was simply a page listing the components of the DTaP vaccine.

[TheDemonLord]

He promotes his opinion ... nothing more. He has no input or influence on any of the parents or guardians of any children at risk. Yet you continue to accuse him of being at fault ...

But in the meantime ... you chose to blame those not involved with the decisions that may have caused harm.

What is lacking is your proof of Katmans conspiracy to kill. All you have his stated opinion.

Not to take you out of Context - but I feel these 3 comments are part of the same argument, so I'm grouping them together to give a single response. Firstly - do you accept the premises that:

A: Measles is a highly virulent and potentially fatal disease, particularly to Children
B: The risk of death from measles is significantly higher than the risk of death from a Vaccine
C: The historical record shows that when we had ~95% vaccination rates, there were zero fatalities from Measles and when those rates fell, we saw Fatal cases of Measles
D: One of the biggest Causal factors in decreased vaccination rates is due to the Anti-Vax movement
E: Said Movement relies in people (such as Katman) in spreading and perpetuating their viewpoint
F: Katman regularly, voluntarily, posts links to articles/'studies'/YT videos that fall under the category of 'Anti-Vax content' and does so without being asked or not in response to something

I believe that on all points, there is sufficient evidence to backup these claims (for example - see posts after https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/s...post1131103939)

based on the above premises, there is a clear logical and causal chain between Katman promoting his anti-vax opinion, and people opting not to vaccinate based on repeatedly disproved lies.

You ask about a conspiracy to kill - well, considering how many times the overwhelming mountain of evidence (Including a case study that exists for when an entire first world nation stops using the MMR vaccine) has been pointed out to him - it's either that or he's clinically Delusional. Since he's able to form coherent thoughts on other matters - that rules out Delusional - so what are we left with?

You admit to exceeding posted speed limits ... that could be construed as encouraging unlawful behavior ... thus responsible for some of the deaths on the roads of New Zealand.

Degree of complicity ... ?? How often do you exceed the speed limits ... ???

You are just another citizen of this country ... that picks and chooses which part of the legislation they choose to comply with (or not). Usually with the certainty of being caught an element in deciding factor not to comply with the law. Nothing we haven't already noticed ...

A parent holding their child as it dies from the result of that parents excessive speed ... fails to prevent that parent exceeding posted speed limits in the future. Your theory leaves a lot to be desired. Like admitting fault and responsibility by those directly involved with the deaths.

These too form a single argument - grouping together to respond.

This is a massive false equivalency. Can you point out where I've encouraged other people to speed? Futhermore Speeding itself doesn't cause the crash - it's the associated effects (too fast for the conditions, too fast for the corner, dangerous overtaking etc.) - whereas measeles definitely does kill. Even if you take the most charitable side of 'it's just stating his opinion' - can you show where I've just stated my opinion that it's right for people to speed AND that the studies done on the effects of crashing at speed are crocked/fasle as the behest of 'Big Auto' AND that I present alternative, debunked and retracted 'studies' as proof?

Show me doing that for a start, then we can pick apart why the above argument is BS without the massive fallacy.

Risk of prosecution ...

That's an Appeal to the Law - If that's the case, then Slavery wasn't morally wrong or evil as there was no risk of Prosecution for owning slaves when it was Legal.

I'll ask again - what is the philosophical difference between the 2?

What if ..??? ... is that all you've got ...

No, the point (and by evading the question, you show you know the answer and where it leads) is to show that we can accept people doing something stupid if they alone suffer the consequences of their stupidity, but when it's not them, but other people that suffer - this becomes a different issue, one that in many instances mandates an intervention (whether that be at the Personal, Societal or Governmental level).

You never gave it in the past ... and you expect us to believe you now ...

Har Har, jab well made (THE PUN!) - I was infact acknowledging the libertarian argument, and that I don't like the fact that we need to have this discussion as I wish people would be able to separate the objective facts from the BS, but alas, the world is not perfect.

Death (in most cases) is due to multiple factors ... only a few of those are usually known prior to a death. Especially on the roads of NZ. Do you think this might happen in the matter of vaccinations ??? Would not getting a vaccination be the sole cause of death ... ??

Well, consider the data when we maintained a ~95% vaccination rates for over a Decade - ZERO Measles deaths, the Anti-vaxxers come along, rates fall to 90% - we now have Measles deaths - even if you were to exclude death from secondary conditions (such as Pneumonia etc.) you still have as you say "not getting a vaccination be the sole cause of death" very clearly established.

Start a "Givealittle" page ...

Would need to switch careers and get a few decades of experience under my belt to have sufficient credentials to honestly start one.

Petty ... : Valid .. debatable ... ?? ... but Legal ... if accusations are true. But if found to be false accusations ... expensive.

There's a difference between not being proved and false accusations. Point was to show figures for countries with similar traits to ours (so not using say the figures from Angola or some other African country) and then show that the risk is as real as I'm making it out to be, and the only reason the death rate is so low is due to the protection afforded by Vaccination.

To use the low rate of death to portray that the risk of measles is low, therefore the vaccination is unnecessary, whilst using the low figures that are due to Vaccination is dishonest.

The belief of statistics entirely depends on the statisticians ability to reduce (or remove) the elements of uncertainty.

Fair point - answer me this: even with a high level of uncertainty, you can still make draw a conclusion as to which way the trend is going. Even with the rough numbers and calculations provided - does it point more towards the position that I hold or more towards the position that Katman holds?