Thinking of getting vaccinated?

[Katman]

Or, you're diverting from the fact that you were caught contradicting yourself and are furiously scrabbling to retain some semblance of Composure.

Like I've said, you seem to struggle with basic English comprehension.

Anyhow, have you learned anything about polysorbate 80 yet?

[Katman]

Mainly these days I simply come here to Argue...

Very poorly.

[TheDemonLord]

Like I've said, you seem to struggle with basic English comprehension.

So - was it Scientific Study or was it Scientific Studies? Since you are so learned at English - you should be able to use them in their correct usage and not flippantly use them interchangeably...

Anyhow, have you learned anything about polysorbate 80 yet?

Depends:

Have you learned that 130 over 15 years is much smaller than 88 in one year?
Have you also learned that the only first world country that stopped using the MMR vaccine for a significant time period also happens to have the highest (or second highest - depending on which assessment criteria is used) rate of Autism in the world?

[Katman]

So - was it Scientific Study or was it Scientific Studies? Since you are so learned at English - you should be able to use them in their correct usage and not flippantly use them interchangeably...

I used them exactly as I intended to use them.

The post where I said "it's predicated on scientific study" means exactly that - predicated on (the field of) scientific study. (Note the singular use of the word study - without the word 'a' before the word scientific).

The post were I said there are scientific studies out there means exactly that - there are scientific studies out there that show polysorbate 80 is used to pass certain medications through the blood brain barrier.

Clear now?

[FJRider]

Sure - but in this case, his opinion has resulted in the preventable Deaths of Children.

Do you not think that such a burden on mere 'opinion' is worth a rebuttal?

You've agreed that those responsible for their actions should be held accountable by the Law - does that not provide an obligation then to refute, vigorously - at length and ad nauseum the spread of BS that has the above mentioned consequences?

Edit:

At the very least, someone who happened across this thread and was in the process of making up their mind would be presented with both sides to the argument - again, is that not worth a bit of repetition?

And finally - what is Repetition to you? You are certainly under no obligation to read or post in this thread - so why the objection?



So that would be a "No, there is no reason why it's a better option" then.

I'll re-state (since we are repeating ourselves) that if the decision and consequences to not vaccinate were limited solely to those people who opted out, then Fine - but unless you would support quarantining them away from society, then their decision has consequences for Me, My Own and the Wider NZ society.

(1) How many deaths were the "result of his opinion" .. ??

(2) in my opinion ... your opinion is worth shit. But that is just my opinion. And I doubt if I'm alone in that opinion. But you are entitled to hold and air an opinion in this thread ... no reason why I can't either ...

(3) If there is a violation or breach of (a)Law or legislation or (b) Human Rights or (c) caused offence to another person ... the person responsible can be held accountable if proven in a court of law.

(4) Argument .. and Valid argument are two separate things. Your continuing to argue would almost be a breach of peace issue. YOUR initials could be (in my opinion) B.S.

(5) There are two sides to an argument ... your's and everybody else's. Any member reading this thread is entitled to add and/or hold their own thoughts and opinions. Are you that far up yourself ... that you believe your opinions in this thread will change another members point of view ... ???

(6) In repetition ... I am entitled to hold and view my opinions in this thread just as you do. Is that an issue for you ... ???

(7) What is it you think I'm actually objecting too ... ???

(8) What one person (compared to another) considers a "Better Option" is usually personal choice and in most cases ... with differing circumstances / situations /and opinions of their merit.

(9) If the choice of vaccination is optional they are within the law not to if they choose. If there is no choice in law ... there will be a risk of prosecution. Just as there is a risk of prosecution for exceeding posted speed limits. Ask yourself ... which of these two examples of risk have a greater risk of death .. ???

(10)

Me, My Own and the Wider NZ society.

... pretty much your priorities all said and done. And in that order.

[TheDemonLord]

(1) How many deaths were the "result of his opinion" .. ??

Of Katman specifically or of the wider Anti-Vax movement? By sharing the opinion of the wider movement and promulgating it, he becomes complicit in it's effects.

To answer that question directly - Thousands, possibly Tens of Thousands, almost all Children.

(3) If there is a violation or breach of (a)Law or legislation or (b) Human Rights or (c) caused offence to another person ... the person responsible can be held accountable if proven in a court of law.

Right. If you do something Stupid (like drive illegally) and Injure or Kill me, you are held to account?
If you do something Stupid (like choose not to get vaccinated for a preventable disease) and Injure or Kill me, should you be held to account?

If not, why not? What is the difference between the 2 - from your opinion?

(5) There are two sides to an argument ... your's and everybody else's. Any member reading this thread is entitled to add and/or hold their own thoughts and opinions. Are you that far up yourself ... that you believe your opinions in this thread will change another members point of view ... ???

I know Katman won't change his Mind, but I enjoy the Argument and in this case I put to you that there are a number of Objective facts that show Katmans opinion to be not only incorrect, but objectively dangerous. And on this particular issue, I refuse to let what he posts go unchallenged because of the real world threat posed by the Anti-Vax movement.

(6) In repetition ... I am entitled to hold and view my opinions in this thread just as you do. Is that an issue for you ... ???

Have I ever called for any censorship on anybodies views? You post here, of your own free will, to complain about others engaging in an argument - if the fact of the argument bothers you, then why come here?

To be clear - I'm not calling for you to be silent or to not engage - I'm questioning the reason for doing so.

If you choose to engage, I'll add my opinion and comment to what you've posted if the fancy takes me. But this line of posting has always perplexed me - there are plenty of threads, filled with arguments that I neither care for, nor engage in - do you see me wandering into those threads to rebuke people from engaging in the discussion?

(7) What is it you think I'm actually objecting too ... ???

I'm tempted to say the fact of me Posting, but I feel that would be a little too presumptuous and egotistical on my part...

I'd hazard a guess it's to the repetitive and cyclical nature of the argument - yet if that was the case - should you not show equal Ire and Contempt for Katman too?

(8) What one person (compared to another) considers a "Better Option" is usually personal choice and in most cases ... with differing circumstances / situations /and opinions of their merit.

The key word in that sentence is 'Usually' - we, as a society, wouldn't let a parent use Bleach on a Childs skin, because they 'thought it was a better option'. Which means (unless you wish to argue against that example) that there is an Objective limit to the freedoms of Personal Choice. Typically predicated on the notion that you can do whatever you like, so long as it doesn't harm anyone else.

It's that last part that is the crux of the Vaccination debate - by choosing not to get vaccinated for preventable diseases, you risk harming someone else. Do you have that right? This brings back to the point above in regards to prosecution.

(9) If the choice of vaccination is optional they are within the law not to if they choose. If there is no choice in law ... there will be a risk of prosecution. Just as there is a risk of prosecution for exceeding posted speed limits. Ask yourself ... which of these two examples of risk have a greater risk of death .. ???

That's a complex question and it depends on which Parameters you want to set - are you assuming a typical NZ population where this is ~90% vaccination rate? Are you including simply exceeding the posted speed limit or are you including the causal factors associated with it (dangerous overtaking, loosing control on Corners, too fast for the conditions) - the things that actually cause the crash?

You can't properly assess the risk of not vaccinating an individual, whilst simultaneously taking advantage of the protection of a vaccinated population. The data we have where there are countries that have a low Vaccination rate (below 70%) is that thousands of Children die to Measles, many more suffer serious permanent effects (such as Brain damage from Encephalitis).

I put it to you that in terms of Risk, they are probably about equal - but in terms of benefit - there is a Benefit to driving faster, what benefit is there to catching Measles?

[Katman]

Right. If you do something Stupid (like drive illegally) and Injure or Kill me, you are held to account?
If you do something Stupid (like choose not to get vaccinated for a preventable disease) and Injure or Kill me, should you be held to account?

If not, why not? What is the difference between the 2 - from your opinion?

Dude, you really are the King of shit analogies.

Not vaccinating your child isn't illegal. (Well not yet, at least).

[Katman]

It's that last part that is the crux of the Vaccination debate - by choosing not to get vaccinated for preventable diseases, you risk harming someone else. Do you have that right?

We risk harming someone else every time we operate a vehicle on a public road.

[FJRider]

Of Katman specifically or of the wider Anti-Vax movement?

You specifically stated "his [Katmans] opinion has resulted in the preventable Deaths of Children" ... so yes, Katman specifically.

If you do something Stupid (like choose not to get vaccinated for a preventable disease) and Injure or Kill me, should you be held to account?

Prove any wrong doing in a court of law.

Prevention is better than a cure ... so wear a condom and get vaccinated.

There are a number of Objective facts that show Katmans opinion to be not only incorrect, but objectively dangerous.

They are still HIS opinion. Opinions he is legally entitled to hold. Regardless of the fact that you do not agree with therm.

Have I ever called for any censorship on anybodies views?

There should be ... on you. Scaremongering and slander is frowned on ...

You accused him of the deaths of thousands of children because of his stated opinion.

If you choose to engage, I'll add my opinion and comment ...

I expect no less ... but try being a little less dramatic with your accusations ... and adding some facts rather than just your opinions might help too ...

I'm tempted to say the fact of me Posting, but I feel that would be a little too presumptuous and egotistical on my part ...

Go on ... be a devil ... and It's never stopped you in the past ...

should you not show equal Ire and Contempt for Katman too?

Does he accuse you of killing thousands of children ... ???

Typically predicated on the notion that you can do whatever you like, so long as it doesn't harm anyone else.

Public harassment of another is an offence. Public nuisance is also an offence. Harm [as in physical harm] is not the single thing that notion is based on.

That's a complex question ...

Not really ... and ACC would argue it's quite simple. Hence a large ACC levy to re-license your motorcycle. Does any such sized levy apply to vaccinations ... ??

The data we have ...

You mean stated statistics with no confirmation of any knowledge or confirmation of any other conflicting conditions that may have affected the numbers stated.

there is a Benefit to driving faster, what benefit is there to catching Measles?

There is immediate risk with travelling faster. Whatever you ride or drive but especially so on a Motorcycle. (ACC says so ...) Measles not so much.

[matt.of.the.ingh]

You specifically stated "his [Katmans] opinion has resulted in the preventable Deaths of Children" ... so yes, Katman specifically.




Prove any wrong doing in a court of law.

Prevention is better than a cure ... so wear a condom and get vaccinated.



They are still HIS opinion. Opinions he is legally entitled to hold. Regardless of the fact that you do not agree with therm.



There should be ... on you. Scaremongering and slander is frowned on ...

You accused him of the deaths of thousands of children because of his stated opinion.




I expect no less ... but try being a little less dramatic with your accusations ... and adding some facts rather than just your opinions might help too ...



Go on ... be a devil ... and It's never stopped you in the past ...



Does he accuse you of killing thousands of children ... ???



Public harassment of another is an offence. Public nuisance is also an offence. Harm [as in physical harm] is not the single thing that notion is based on.



Not really ... and ACC would argue it's quite simple. Hence a large ACC levy to re-license your motorcycle. Does any such sized levy apply to vaccinations ... ??



You mean stated statistics with no confirmation of any knowledge or confirmation of any other conflicting conditions that may have affected the numbers stated.



There is immediate risk with travelling faster. Whatever you ride or drive but especially so on a Motorcycle. (ACC says so ...) Measles not so much.

I assume the problem here is that you haven't actually read all the evidence rider. There is plenty on here.

It does sound like hyperbole to say that not vaccinating your children kills millions ( I think you only said thousands) but the only reasons these diseases exist is because we haven't eradicated them yet. That relies on everyone vaccinating their kids.

I know that Katman vaccinating his future children won't help developing countries vaccinate their entire population, but it is a simple fact that this is the only way to prevent these diseases.

'Prevention is better than a cure ... so wear a condom and get vaccinated'
The most sensible thing anyone has said on this thread.

Harm? Demon and Katman aren't being harmed one way or the other. At all.
They are both fully enjoying their human rights. But the antivax movement is a real thing.
Parents are deciding that they will let their children catch preventable diseases, and that is harm. For the kids themselves and the prople who rely on herd immunity. For all his claims, Katman hasn't shared anything that refutes herd immunity.
There is harm being done. It's being done by well intentioned people who believe this antivax stuff.

In one of his recent posts Katman tried to mock me for saying that I was upset. It does upset me. I understand that be parents are really susceptible to people telling them that stuff will hurt their baby. Even if they don't really believe it, it's still a worry when your vulnerable.
That's why this antivax stuff needs to be challenged. It is important that the truth is defended.

It's not hyperbole, it's just that you've never realised how much of the antivax argument is complete nonsense.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[TheDemonLord]

You specifically stated "his [Katmans] opinion has resulted in the preventable Deaths of Children" ... so yes, Katman specifically.

By taking part in the continuation of this idea, Yes, I do judge him thus.

If you think I'm being overly dramatic - fine, but remember - when NZ, the UK, the US etc. had Vaccination rates above 95%, there were no deaths from Measles and virtually no cases that ended up in permanent medical issues. Since the Anti-vaxx movement started and rates have fallen - all those countries have experienced their first death(s) due to Measles in over 10 years.

I am deadly serious when I say that promoting this repeatedly disproved and debunked idea has a direct causal link to some parents choosing not to vaccinate which has a direct causal link to people dying from a preventable disease.

Prove any wrong doing in a court of law.

Prevention is better than a cure ... so wear a condom and get vaccinated.

If a parent fails to ensure a child is securely strapped in a Vehicle - they get penalised, by a Court of Law.
Putting the letter of the law to one side for a moment - how is that different to not getting Vaccinated?

They are still HIS opinion. Opinions he is legally entitled to hold. Regardless of the fact that you do not agree with therm.

If his opinion was that he could jump off a cliff and fly - would you try and do anything about it? What about if his opinion was he could drive a car through a school yard at breaktime and not kill anyone - would you try and do anything about it?

This particular opinion has demonstrable, real world consequences. That is something I happened to be concerned with.

There should be ... on you. Scaremongering and slander is frowned on ...

You accused him of the deaths of thousands of children because of his stated opinion.

Yes. As I accuse all Anti-vaxxers so. Based on the evidence between the vaccination rates and lack of deaths from the 1990s to early 2000s and the re-occurence of the first fatal cases of Measels and the drop in Vaccination rates subsequently. It's not Slander or Scaremongering if it's true. And if you really believe I've broken the law - I'd be happy to state the above opinion in front of any judge, in any court in the Land, at anytime.

I expect no less ... but try being a little less dramatic with your accusations ... and adding some facts rather than just your opinions might help too ...

Okay. If you want the facts - I've posted them previously in this thread. The main ones are:

1: Every 'scientific study' that Katman has ever cited on the matter has either been retracted, debunked or been the work of pure speculation with ZERO experimental data.
2: If the claim of the MMR vaccine can cause Autism is true, then it stands to reason that if a country was to stop using the MMR, then the Autism rate would fall - Japan has one of the highest or the highest (depending on which metric is used) incidences of Autism in the world, Japan also stopped using the MMR vaccine in 1993.
3: The fatality rate from the MMR Vaccine is lower than 1 in 1,000,000 (and procedures are in place to reduce that even further) - the fatality rate for Measles is 1 in 10,000 cases, with permanent medical complications occurring in around 1 in 1,000 cases
4: Measles is the leading, preventable fatal disease globally
5: Measles was declared eradicated in the Americas and in Europe, until the late 2010s, with most individuals who contract the disease are *drum roll* Unvaccinated!

Is that Dramatic enough for you?

Does he accuse you of killing thousands of children ... ???

Regularly (By Proxy), whenever we discuss the Iraq, Afghanistan or other wars or other aspects of international US foreign Policy.

Public harassment of another is an offence. Public nuisance is also an offence. Harm [as in physical harm] is not the single thing that notion is based on.

Did I say Physical Harm? I don't think I did... Nuisance and Harassment are predicated on both the concept of causing Harm to others (in this case emotional harm) and on the concept that one should be free to go about their lawful business.

Not really ... and ACC would argue it's quite simple. Hence a large ACC levy to re-license your motorcycle. Does any such sized levy apply to vaccinations ... ??

What an interesting Idea... Charging those who opt not to get Vaccinated an ACC levy for engaging in risky behaviour - Love your style FJRider.

You mean stated statistics with no confirmation of any knowledge or confirmation of any other conflicting conditions that may have affected the numbers stated.

Well, consider this - the US road department put the yearly risk of dying from a car accident (all car accidents, not just where speed was the cause) at ~1 in 100,000 - at the height of the Japanese measles outbreak there were 200,000 cases in a year, for a population of 126.8 Million - that's a 1 in 700 chance of contracting Measles, in a year, given the death rate - it's about 1 in 160,000 (at the population level) - so not too far off, however - you've got to factor in that even with the drop in vaccination rate, the country as a whole still had around an 80% vaccination rate. If you remove that per-existing resilience, then it's not a far-fetched speculation to say that the risk of dying of Measles (without the protection granted by a highly vaccinated populace) IS greater than the risk of dying in a Car Crash.

I'll grant you those are rough figures with some very quick extrapolations - but the point I'm making is that Measles is highly contagious and quite dangerous - it's not like getting the Sniffles.

There is immediate risk with travelling faster. Whatever you ride or drive but especially so on a Motorcycle. (ACC says so ...) Measles not so much.

That all depends on how you define immediate - sure a Car crash itself happens in a matter of Seconds - but there is normally a bit of a drive associated with the crash - Measles can and does kill within a few hours - which, as far as diseases go, is pretty immediate.

"In an hour she was unconscious, in 12, she was dead"

[matt.of.the.ingh]

Ps, how do you do the thing with loads of quotes in one message?
I know it's of topic, but it would be really helpful for me....

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[TheDemonLord]

Dude, you really are the King of shit analogies.

Not vaccinating your child isn't illegal. (Well not yet, at least).

I see you missed the point (again).

It wasn't an analogy, it was a comparison.

[TheDemonLord]

Ps, how do you do the thing with loads of quotes in one message?
I know it's of topic, but it would be really helpful for me....

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

When you quote someone - the message is enclosed in the open quote tag: [QUOTE=matt.of.the.ingh;1131122415]


and the close quote tag [ /quote] (remove the space)

Just copy the open quote tag and paste it in front of whatever section of the reply you think is relevant, and then end with the close quote tag:

[TheDemonLord]

We risk harming someone else every time we operate a vehicle on a public road.

We've established that, do try and keep up.

However the difference is that with a Vehicle, there is a benefit to taking that Risk, there is no benefit for taking the risk of Measles (despite your laughable claim of 'natural immunity')