Thinking of getting vaccinated?

[Katman]

In one of his recent posts Katman tried to mock me for saying that I was upset. It does upset me.

Then this probably isn't the place for you.

See if you can find yourself a nice little knitting forum to join.

[Katman]

Well, consider this - the US road department put the yearly risk of dying from a car accident (all car accidents, not just where speed was the cause) at ~1 in 100,000 - at the height of the Japanese measles outbreak there were 200,000 cases in a year, for a population of 126.8 Million - that's a 1 in 700 chance of contracting Measles, in a year, given the death rate - it's about 1 in 160,000 (at the population level) - so not too far off, however - you've got to factor in that even with the drop in vaccination rate, the country as a whole still had around an 80% vaccination rate. If you remove that per-existing resilience, then it's not a far-fetched speculation to say that the risk of dying of Measles (without the protection granted by a highly vaccinated populace) IS greater than the risk of dying in a Car Crash.

There were 200,000 cases of measles with 88 deaths.

As I've already pointed out that's 0.044% died of those who contracted it.

We're not talking about the Black Plague here.

[Katman]

I see you missed the point (again).

It wasn't an analogy, it was a comparison.

Dude, google 'analogy meaning' and see what it tells you.

Your English comprehension is appalling.

[Katman]

Katman was maintaining that there's a Risk with Vaccines (which, to be fair, is true) and claiming because there is a risk, they shouldn't be used.

Dude, stop trying to win an argument by making shit up. If you're going to argue your point, at least try to do it with some degree of integrity.

I have never said people should not get vaccinated, nor have I ever said people should not vaccinate their children.

In fact, I have repeatedly said that I would never stand in the way of a person wanting have their children vaccinated.

What I do most strongly believe is that people should be educated on both sides of the issue rather than simply relying on the message that if you don't vaccinate it will spell the end of civilisation.

And mandatory vaccination can get fucked.

[Katman]

Okay. If you want the facts - I've posted them previously in this thread. The main ones are:

1: Every 'scientific study' that Katman has ever cited on the matter has either been retracted, debunked or been the work of pure speculation with ZERO experimental data.

Really?

How about you go back through the thread and list all the studies that I've cited and show how they have "been retracted, debunked or been the work of pure speculation with ZERO experimental data" then.

[TheDemonLord]

There were 200,000 cases of measles with 88 deaths.

As I've already pointed out that's 0.044% died of those who contracted it.

We're not talking about the Black Plague here.

Except you omit that the population of Japan had about 80% vaccination rate thanks to prior generations being vaccinated. You were saying something about Integrity.

Dude, google 'analogy meaning' and see what it tells you.

Your English comprehension is appalling.

Sigh. Is this what you've devolved to?

Yes, an Analogy makes a Comparison - but you'll notice that the words are different, that's because they have different meanings. The key difference is an Analogy typically involves a substitution to prove a point: X is different to Y, but X shares similarities to Y (This is the Comparison), Therefore X instead of Y, therefore point.

What I did is to show X shares Similarities to Y and then ask why they should be treated differently. If I'd then gone on to substitute it in and make an Analogy - you'd be right. But I didn't. An analogy is like when I used the Helmet crash data to show how ridiculous the 129 deaths video was. That's why it's a Comparison and not an Analogy.

So yes, your English comprehension IS appalling.

Dude, stop trying to win an argument by making shit up. If you're going to argue your point, at least try to do it with some degree of integrity.

Oh, the Irony. You see above where you make an argument about how deadly Measles isn't, whilst deliberately omitting the reason the death is as low as it was, was due to pre-existing protection in the form of the previous generation being Vaccinated.

Your entire argument hinges on the low death rate, which has a direct causal link to the thing you are arguing against. You cannot have it both ways. You were saying something about Degrees of Integrity?

I have never said people should not get vaccinated, nor have I ever said people should not vaccinate their children.

Okay, let me add some nuance in there: You believe that there is sufficient evidence that any reasonable person, with a healthy child (so no pre-existing auto-immune conditions or any verified medical conditions where a vaccination wouldn't be appropriate) could review the evidence and make the determination to opt not to vaccinate their child.

That is predicated on the idea that you believe that there is sufficient Risk with a Vaccine, that it is reasonable to opt out. Combine that with the discussion in the other thread where you proved you cannot abide by any action that results in any form of loss of life (even when it's demonstrably clear that it would reduce the sum total of Human suffering) I expressed the combination of those two viewpoints as "because there is a risk, they shouldn't be used."

In fact, I have repeatedly said that I would never stand in the way of a person wanting have their children vaccinated.

By spreading this idea, you are standing (by proxy) in the way of people wanting to vaccinate their child. You may not be doing it with force of Arms, but Ideas can be just as Deadly (see the re-occurence of fatal instances of Measles outbreaks in the Western world, amongst un-vaccinated groups for proof).

What I do most strongly believe is that people should be educated on both sides of the issue rather than simply relying on the message that if you don't vaccinate it will spell the end of civilisation.

Okay, here's the 'other side' of the argument: There is a risk with a Vaccine, that your child may have a previously unknown allergic reaction. There is a procedure in place to deal with that. but there is still a risk. It's a risk considerably less than dying in a Car Crash in your lifetime (by a factor of about 25 times less likely), Considerably less than Drowning (by a factor about 10-20 times less likely), Considerably less than a Peanut allergy (by a factor of about 20,000 times less likely). In fact, you have a far higher chance of winning Division 1 Lotto, with a $7 ticket than you are to have an issue with a Vaccine (by about a factor of 3.5).

End.
Of.

No Autism. No Developmental disorders. No Aluminium adjuvants crossing the blood-brain barrier causing 'something'.

As for the end of Civilisation - let me be clear. A drop of just 5% in the Vaccination rates in a population has resulted in a multiple countries going from Zero deaths (over the course of over a decade), to multiple deaths. A drop of about 10-15% lead to multiple outbreaks, with over a thousand total Deaths (or at the very least - confirmed 88 in one year) and many many more suffering from permanent medical complications (Brain Damage, blindness, Deafness etc.).

For a Single example of the difference between Vaccination and non-vaccination - the Single biggest killer in the 20th Century, More than all the Dead in both world Wars AND all the dead killed by oppressive regimes COMBINED - was Small Pox.

Given the move towards increased travel, increased proximity, increased intermingling of populations then it is clear: Not Vaccinating will result in many needless Deaths, which - putting aside the Human Tragedy aspect (which is ironic that you don't give a shit about, all your previous utterances considered - you were saying something about Integrity I believe?) has a snowball effect on already stretched hospital resources, lost productivity etc.

And for what? Some 'Utopia' where Katman can revel in the downfall of those Evil Big Pharma corporates who are no longer making Billions, all whilst surrounded by the corpses of Children?

And mandatory vaccination can get fucked.

You're happy with Mandatory Helmet usage, you're happy with Mandatory Seatbelt usage - but Mandatory Vaccinations can get Fucked...

Right. Good job you'll never have kids then.

Really?

How about you go back through the thread and list all the studies that I've cited and show how they have "been retracted, debunked or been the work of pure speculation with ZERO experimental data" then.

You've cited Mr Wakefield, the Greers, Christopher Shaw and Lucija Tomljenovic, Christopher Exely - that's from my Memory.

[Katman]

Okay, let me add some nuance in there: You believe that there is sufficient evidence that any reasonable person, with a healthy child (so no pre-existing auto-immune conditions or any verified medical conditions where a vaccination wouldn't be appropriate) could review the evidence and make the determination to opt not to vaccinate their child.

That is predicated on the idea that you believe that there is sufficient Risk with a Vaccine, that it is reasonable to opt out. Combine that with the discussion in the other thread where you proved you cannot abide by any action that results in any form of loss of life (even when it's demonstrably clear that it would reduce the sum total of Human suffering) I expressed the combination of those two viewpoints as "because there is a risk, they shouldn't be used."



By spreading this idea, you are standing (by proxy) in the way of people wanting to vaccinate their child. You may not be doing it with force of Arms, but Ideas can be just as Deadly (see the re-occurence of fatal instances of Measles outbreaks in the Western world, amongst un-vaccinated groups for proof).

And as I've pointed out a number of times, it's your autism that gives you such a distorted view of what you think people are saying.

[TheDemonLord]

And as I've pointed out a number of times, it's your autism that gives you such a distorted view of what you think people are saying.

And with the Ad Hominem - I've got the right to declare victory.

[Katman]

And with the Ad Hominem - I've got the right to declare victory.

It's not an Ad Hominem.

You were the one who stated you are on the Autism Spectrum.

I'm just pointing out how it's that fact that is distorting your view of what I'm saying.

[TheDemonLord]

It's not an Ad Hominem.

You were the one who stated you are on the Autism Spectrum.

I'm just pointing out how it's that fact that is distorting your view of what I'm saying.

No. I've never stated that. Try again.

You're starting to believe that your own farts smell like Roses.

Doubly hilarious since you got on your 'Integrity' high horse and accusing me of 'Interpretation'...

[Katman]

No. I've never stated that. Try again.

Ah, yes you have.

And deep down, that's why this whole issue is so personal to you.

[TheDemonLord]

Ah, yes you have.

And deep down, that's why this whole issue is so personal to you.

No. I have not.

I do, however, know what I have said and in what it's related to.

Which brings us to an interesting observation: You are at best mistaken. Considering, however, I've told you explicitly you are incorrect about this - and I know what I have and more importantly what I don't have - this cannot be true.

Therefore, you're flat-out lying to prove your point - which if we quote your own words back to you:

Dude, stop trying to win an argument by making shit up. If you're going to argue your point, at least try to do it with some degree of integrity.

[FJRider]

By taking part in the continuation of this idea, Yes, I do judge him thus.

So ... him agreeing in principal to this opinion ... is in your proof of his liability in the deaths of children that he had no control of ... or input into the decisions made at that time.

Sounds fair ... (NOT)

If a parent fails to ensure a child is securely strapped in a Vehicle - they get penalised, by a Court of Law.
Putting the letter of the law to one side for a moment - how is that different to not getting Vaccinated?

Putting children into the child safety seat is required by law in most civilized countries of the world. Vaccinations ... not so. The difference is a matter of conscience ... not LAW.

If his opinion was that he could jump off a cliff and fly - would you try and do anything about it?

He is entitled to his opinion. In my opinion ... the law of gravity will overrule his opinion. And the planet Earth will continue to rotate. And life as we know it will go on ...

This particular opinion has demonstrable, real world consequences. That is something I happened to be concerned with.

In your opinion ... and well done you for speaking your mind ... if you have half a mind to do so. I guess half a mind is all YOU need ... to form an opinion.

It's not Slander or Scaremongering if it's true.

If not required by law ... totally optional. Personal choice. You don't like being told to do things you don't want to ... even if you are required by law to do so. Why argue when the matter is optional .. ??

Okay. If you want the facts - I've posted them previously in this thread. The main ones are:

It's optional. A simple and the only relevant fact.

Is that Dramatic enough for you?

To save the world .. you'll need to work harder to convince anybody. Good luck with that ...

Regularly (By Proxy), whenever we discuss the Iraq, Afghanistan or other wars or other aspects of international US foreign Policy.

In such circumstances death is expected. Even budgeted for by the respective governments. And by no means illegal.

Did I say Physical Harm? I don't think I did... Nuisance and Harassment are predicated on both the concept of causing Harm to others (in this case emotional harm) and on the concept that one should be free to go about their lawful business.

If you have proof that Katman caused harm in any way to others ... you are duty bound by law to report it to Police ... have you done so yet. If not ... WHY NOT ...

What an interesting Idea... Charging those who opt not to get Vaccinated an ACC levy for engaging in risky behaviour - Love your style FJRider.

If I don't please ... I amuse. Annoyance is optional.

Well, consider this

Not NZ stat's ... don't care about other countries. I probably wont go there ... so irrelevant.

I'll grant you those are rough figures with some very quick extrapolations

You will never make a point with rough figures ... if you can't be bothered don't bother.

That all depends on how you define immediate

When was the last immediate death from measles in NZ ... ??

[Katman]

No. I have not.

Oh well, I know I read it and I'm sure others read it too.

So be aware that your denial might come back to bite you in the arse one day.

[TheDemonLord]

Oh well, I know I read it and I'm sure others read it too.

So be aware that your denial might come back to bite you in the arse one day.

Then post up the Quotation if you are so sure you are right. It'd make a change for you.

What you remember, is that I've acknowledged I have A condition (that, FYI, is not on the ASD spectrum at all) and some of the symptoms of said condition are similar to symptoms of Autism.

If your English Comprehension is so bad that you can't tell the difference, then I'm sorry for you.



The only person who thinks I have Autism, is you - and as the above admittal - you've started to believe in your own Lies.