2-strokes in MotoGP?

[husaberg]

Aye that is true,but the true rot set in when Dorna gave the manufacturers association the free agenda to set their own technical regulations.With the promise from said manufacturers that they would guarantee enough works and customer bikes.You can see how well that's worked out eh.

Every man and his dog knew costs would skyrocket and eventually only the manufacturer with the most resources would prevail.
Honda must be laughing all the way to the bank.

I agree with a lot of that but not the Honda making money out of Motogp i doubt it even at $250 for a gudgeon pin or what ever it was.
Manufacturers race for advertising and prestige not for money. esp Honda

[F5 Dave]

Far to many noses at the throughs.

Added the BMS851/985 cause i like it, and there is F-all pics on it on the Web. Is it still at BMS Dave.

here is the Formula a couple of boffins hired by thr FIM came up with for 2 vs four stroke.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/at...9&d=1356318463

seems pretty fair to me 360cc vs 500cc or 500cc 2t vs 694cc 4t shit give them 750cc i don't care

BMS hasn't existed in its original form for over a decade. Dallas sold out to some guy in Upper Hutt, but I've never been there. I always remember a mate Chris who used to work there (wgtn) describing the then new 851 as a crashed helicopter as it's what it looked like unclothed, guess the FI gubbins made it more complex than the Pantahs by 2.

[eelracing]

Manufacturers race for advertising and prestige not for money. esp Honda

You miss my point,so let me clarify.
Advertising and prestige is money in the bank for a manufacturer...look at Ferrari in F1 and Ducati in Superbikes,both factories have built their reputation on racing success and with it comes sales.

Honda knows this and Yamaha too,but to put them in charge of the GP regs is like putting beneficiaries in charge of social welfare or cops in charge of donut shops.

I don't blame Dorna for doing this as they are money-men and longterm thinking is not in their interest.But the factories sold them a lie and the motorcycling press were creaming themselves over the thought of GP reps for the road.
Like I said,Honda are still laughing all the way to the bank.

[F5 Dave]

I still don't see why 2 strokes are any less relevant to road bikes as F1 is to cars. In fact F1 is totally alien to road cars.

[Mental Trousers]

I still don't see why 2 strokes are any less relevant to road bikes as F1 is to cars. In fact F1 is totally alien to road cars.

The number of 2 stroke scooters sold world wide you'd think 2 strokes are very relevant. But it seems those that influence the rules of GP racing aren't interested.

[eelracing]

I still don't see why 2 strokes are any less relevant to road bikes as F1 is to cars. In fact F1 is totally alien to road cars.

Exactly Dave and was a big part of Honda selling the myth to Dorna.
Afterall the two stroke era gave us radial tyres,decent frames and suspension,powervalves and by association exup exhaust valves that all manufacturers adopted,radial braking and big bang crank timing...I could go on.

The modern four stroke era has given us...um...er...5 valve heads are all shit...um...er 990's are to dangerous...um...er 800's are to boring...um...er oh yeah electronic control to take the guess work out of riding skills.

[tail_end_charlie]

Afterall the two stroke era gave us radial tyres,decent frames and suspension,powervalves and by association exup exhaust valves that all manufacturers adopted,radial braking and big bang crank timing...I could go on.

The modern four stroke era has given us...um...er...5 valve heads are all shit...um...er 990's are to dangerous...um...er 800's are to boring...um...er oh yeah electronic control to take the guess work out of riding skills.

Oh come on now, your comparing, what 50 years of GP racing 2 strokes to 10 years GP racing 4 strokes, hardly fair. I would sure as hell hope that they came up with a lot more advancments during the 2-stroke era considering that they had about 5x the development period. And if your trying to argue that there haven't been any frame, suspension, brake or tyre advances in the last 10 years, then you really need to get your head out of your 2-stroke ass.

Everything advances over time, if you don't keep up, you'll get left behind. Sorry, but the "glory days" of 2-stroke racing are in the past, get over it. Get excited about something new......

[eelracing]

And if your trying to argue that there haven't been any frame, suspension, brake or tyre advances in the last 10 years, then you really need to get your head out of your 2-stroke ass.

Comprehension is not your strong point is it son.

Those advancements would of come with the two stroke to you know.
The last ten years have just been refinements on what we already had with the two stroke era.

Try and remember that the argument from the manufacturers to Dorna (and to the world) to go fourstroke was sold as being more relevant to consumers.
Afterall how many V5/4 Honda race reps have you seen in your neck of the woods.I know Yamaha R1's are being sold on a crossplane crank but they're hardly flying out of showroom floors.

[tail_end_charlie]

Comprehension is not your strong point is it son.

Those advancements would of come with the two stroke to you know.

So are you saying they wouldn't have come along if there wasn't 2-strokes racing in GP's? Its all the same arguement, you are always going to get development on what is there. Boil it all down and your still working with a internal combustion engine (2-stroke or 4-stroke) that runs at somewhere between 20-30% efficiency.

The last ten years have just been refinements on what we already had with the two stroke era.

Ok, so lets say, pneumatic valves, slipper clutches (or electronic engine braking), multiple engine mapping accessable on the fly, ect ect. Yeah, a lot of electronics there, but lets be honest, thats the way the world is going. (And yes, I am one of that generation who has never bought a newspaper.)

Try and remember that the argument from the manufacturers to Dorna (and to the world) to go fourstroke was sold as being more relevant to consumers.
Afterall how many V5/4 Honda race reps have you seen in your neck of the woods.I know Yamaha R1's are being sold on a crossplane crank but they're hardly flying out of showroom floors.

Probably about as many as large bore (greater than 125cc) 2-stroke engines that have been sold recently...........actually, probably less. (Talking road bikes specifically, not off-road)
Even when 2-strokes were the king of GP racing, what was the ratio of 2-strokes vs. 4-strokes that were available to the public? I've been to a couple of classic bike show and swap meets, and the majority of bikes I see are 4-strokes. So it seems that the argument that the MSMA made for 4-strokes being more relevant to the consumer is correct........

[eelracing]

So are you saying they wouldn't have come along if there wasn't 2-strokes racing in GP's? Its all the same arguement, you are always going to get development on what is there. Boil it all down and your still working with a internal combustion engine (2-stroke or 4-stroke) that runs at somewhere between 20-30% efficiency.

Boil it all down and cc for cc a two stroke will waste a fourstroke...fact.

Ok, so lets say, pneumatic valves, slipper clutches (or electronic engine braking), multiple engine mapping accessable on the fly, ect ect. Yeah, a lot of electronics there, but lets be honest, thats the way the world is going. (And yes, I am one of that generation who has never bought a newspaper.)

Your world=extra weight,extra complexity and extra expense...proven fact if the last ten years has meant anything.


Probably about as many as large bore (greater than 125cc) 2-stroke engines that have been sold recently...........actually, probably less. (Talking road bikes specifically, not off-road)
Even when 2-strokes were the king of GP racing, what was the ratio of 2-strokes vs. 4-strokes that were available to the public? I've been to a couple of classic bike show and swap meets, and the majority of bikes I see are 4-strokes. So it seems that the argument that the MSMA made for 4-strokes being more relevant to the consumer is correct........

Bottom line,GP racing used to be about going from point to point faster than the next guy.Now it's about selling product,be it roadbikes or TV packages.
Now go back to the top of page 6,make yourself a nice cup of tea and start reading again...then get back to me when you've got a clue.

[F5 Dave]

. . . So it seems that the argument that the MSMA made for 4-strokes being more relevant to the consumer is correct........

So as I drove to work (its ok I had some bike parts in the van) I didn't see any open wheel driver exposed cars revving to 20,000 (or whatever tehy do I care not about car racing).

[F5 Dave]

. . . (And yes, I am one of that generation who has never bought a newspaper.).......

So that's who's stealling them. You probably have it away with me milk money too (its hard to buy tokens these days, mind you the milkman seems to have skipped us. . .- well for quite some time now. I'll send him a fax).

[Flettner]

APART from electronics, as these can be used on both 2 and 4 stroke, what has the fourstroke bought us development wise that's that much different than say the 1960's? Still four valve ( poppets ), still twin over head cam, still require many revs to make power ( BMEP is still much the same, just at a higher RPM ). Parts are lighter, a little less internal friction ( special coatings ). Not much excitement there!
Twostroke development was just getting started but the rules soon took care of that!
I think perhaps the " manufactures" didn't like the idea of modifying your twostroke with just a die grinder and a few clues. Fourstroke's are far more profitable to hot up with all that stuff, cams, valves, springs, pistons, etc, etc. The more you spend, the shorter the fuse.
The only fourstroke I have in my shed is sitting there waiting for it's 50hr piston change and I just can't get excited about it! I'd rather ride my "dirty old twostroke", way more fun.

[husaberg]

BMS hasn't existed in its original form for over a decade. Dallas sold out to some guy in Upper Hutt, but I've never been there. I always remember a mate Chris who used to work there (wgtn) describing the then new 851 as a crashed helicopter as it's what it looked like unclothed, guess the FI gubbins made it more complex than the Pantahs by 2.

Yeah i guess people move on and grow old plus all the fun probably went out of the sponsoring after Robert died as well.
Dallas used run an impressive stable of bikes. The 851 were brick like beneath the fairings, everything crammed on top of each other, Pasos were pretty damn ugly without the fairing as well.
I guess even the Italians don't see any need to make it pretty if no one ever sees it. i think it was Bordis first baby.

[F5 Dave]

The following is conjecture, I do not know the guy:

I think more he'd realised he'd created a white elephant that virtually no one could afford to buy but foresaw the market tanking. Was pretty much the biggest bikeshop in the country revenue-wise I understand (you wouldn't think so) & sold mail order to all around the globe, buying up all sorts of NOS.

It takes a smart businessman to build an empire, but a smarter one to know when the market is changing & skedaddle. Internet was the big unknown I guess.