125GP for NZSBK 2014?

[oyster]

No Billy, there's no need to "move on". It needs a "move back" IE "if in doubt, read the instructions" The classes and technology we have now are fine, they just need using. Tell me just what is wrong with young junior road race, miniature road race, Streetstock and 125GP for the development of youth? You could add Hyosung Cup and 250 prod to that list as well, but these two would unlikely be as effective as the former list. It's all there, it just needs the leadership (and commitment) to utilise it.

[Billy]

No Billy, there's no need to "move on". It needs a "move back" IE "if in doubt, read the instructions" The classes and technology we have now are fine, they just need using. Tell me just what is wrong with young junior road race, miniature road race, Streetstock and 125GP for the development of youth? You could add Hyosung Cup and 250 prod to that list as well, but these two would unlikely be as effective as the former list. It's all there, it just needs the leadership (and commitment) to utilise it.

It was an either/Or statement Pete,

As you say, There is nothing wrong with whats already available, Other than next to nobody is utilizing it, The roadrace commissioner simply does not have the time to organise and neither should he OR anybody else involved directly with MNZ, There are guidelines already in the Manual, The rest is up to the individual clubs, There could and should be further assistance available from MNZ where required, The problem lies with the clubs, I believe atleast one NI club are looking at doing something in the future, But I doubt we will see any results from that for a minmum 12 months.

[Mattr]

125s were a great class with much fun to be had. My boy is 7 and riding MX, unfortuanatly if I get him onto the track at 13 the 125s will be well gone I would imagine, and wont have the great experience that I had. He is built for them too.

[jellywrestler]

125s were a great class with much fun to be had. My boy is 7 and riding MX, unfortuanatly if I get him onto the track at 13 the 125s will be well gone I would imagine, and wont have the great experience that I had. He is built for them too.

that's what they said about manx nortons too, i was at a classic meeting last weekend and there were 125's racing there.

[steveyb]

I of course, have a vested interest in seeing the 125GP (or contemporary equivalent) class survive and flourish in NZ.
The future of this class of racing now is in Pre-Moto3 and Moto3 motorcycles. These are now available in various guises in NZ and around the world. NZ, Australia, USA and UK are really the final vestiges of the 125GP machine, which is not a judgement either way, just stating the case.
Using the example of developing a good business, and transferring that into sport, in Spain riders move onto Pre-Moto3 (Spanish Cup) and Moto3 (CEV) machines as soon as they are big enough to manage them. There are (virtually) no 125's left over there now at national level.
In many ways that is a shame, but it is also the fact of the matter.
So, what can be done here in NZ?
Of course development of the sport at the junior level is the only real answer and the ways and means to do that have been debated here and elsewhere for years now. At the end of the day it takes a few dedicated individuals to do it, much like Oyster did in the Sth Is and others are trying/have tried in the way they thought might/would work.
A comment was made about exorbitant fees for riders to compete in the 125GP class thereby pricing it out of the market. I would like to answer that with my own example, and I cannot speak for anyone else. I launched Moto Academy NZ in 2008 in the hope that it would be able to grow into our equivalent of Red Bull Rookies Cup, with a full on race series of its own, attached to club and national events.
I was never able, due to either my own incompetence or the poor value of the sport or a combination of the two, to attract a sponsor or supporter that would allow that growth to occur.
I was able to run four RS125s with spare bikes for several years with fair to good success I think.
But again, I was never able to attract anyone to join me and help run the bikes and riders (again probably due to my own incompetence).
But as far as the fees go, only one rider in Moto Academy NZ (overseas rider with a generous sponsor) ever paid the full cost of competing and providing me with a $ for my time in the workshop, at the track, away from work or away from family.
Over the years of running Moto Academy NZ it has cost me well over $100,000 of my own money, for other people to go racing. Not for me to go racing or get my jollies, for other people. It is no wonder I don't own a house and probably now never will. I look back and wonder whether any of it was worth it. But then I see the success of riders like Hafiq, Glen O, Aaron H, Kyle H (from time to time) and think, Yeah that was not so bad I guess.
I hazard a guess, that other suppliers are in the same boat.
There is an understanding in NZ that if it costs more than 100 bucks, then it is too much. Running these types of bikes is a bit more expensive and demanding than running 250 Proddy bikes, that is just that.
As Hafiqs Dad Dato said, We know the rules when we sign up. Sign up or do not, don't complain afterwards.
So, what am I getting at? I think that new suppliers of teams and bikes will come and go for riders to join, but the riders and families need to understand that it costs money. They can do it on their own and spend time and money learning their own way and make it out the other side or give up (like many do), or join a team and have the value of IP and experience. But they should not expect that to be free. It is not free in any other business, it is not free in many other sports. Bike racing costs a bit more than some sports, less than others.
Pre-Moto3 and Moto3 bikes are available, Pre-Moto3 bikes can be made from existing 125GP bikes (sacrilegious I know but keeps costs down). They seem to be easier to ride and manage than 125GP bikes. More MX Dads are comfortable with 4-stroke engines nowadays than 2-strokes. So, other than the fact that young riders are not joining the sport, the machines are available.
Perhaps a re-branding of the class to Moto3 (capturing 125GP, Pre-Moto3 and Moto3 with perhaps different weight limits to even out the performances) might help attract riders?
Some will say "Bah, what's in a name?" The answer is "Almost everything".
Honda, Yamaha and Aprilia no longer manufacture 125GP machines and stopped doing so 5 years ago. Pre-Moto3 machines are available from IMD, BeOn, IMR, Moriwaki, Bianchi, GPTech and one or two others. Moto3 bikes from Honda, KTM and Ioda. But Moto3 bikes are 2-3 times the price of Pre-Moto3 bikes for only 10-20% better performance.
None of this treatise answers the problem of attracting young riders into the sport, but I hope it provides some insight into the costs, "exhorbitant fees" and availability of machines for the future.
Moto Academy NZ, IMD and Biggles Racing Team are certainly supporting the continuation of the class.

[oyster]

steveyb. What a load of crap (some of it). There is no mystery about junior development. There should be no debate. It doesn't need "dedicated individuals" It just needs clubs to apply proven principles. Promote, train, recognize. Simple.
A good recent example The Auckland club quote"we could never have that here, it would be like watching paint dry" Along comes the Hyosung Cup. Instant class, full grids. How? promotion, training, recognition. The McCleary cup is on in about a month. Where is the promotion? Who even knows it exists! And yet for 90% of our young talent at national level presently, this was (is?)a crucial series, the stepping stone to a championship career.

[steveyb]

Jeez Pete, way to turn mates into enemies.
Tell the world I speak a load of crap why don't you, then contradict yourself by speaking in glib clichés that prove the opposite to your point and argue a point I was not even making (or obliquely was in praise of your work).
The question was about the future of 125GP or its replacement in NZ.
Don't see you answering that question, just making a bunch of self-serving tirades.
Fucking over it now, truly.

[oyster]

Apologies. The reference to crap is only two things. The constant pushing of the myths
1) dedicated individuals are required
2) it's a mystery how to get a thriving junior scene.

I'm as frustrated as anyone to see 125gp go. But I know for sure why it's going. It's because there are no feeder classes
in good health.

Moto academy was a damn fine effort. But I felt from the beginning it needed a strong development class community to provide you with the customers. Typically 13/14 year olds who could rattle off 1.22's around Manfeild on a Streetstock bike, and had ridden the McCleary cup in the top 5. Parents/sponsors prepared to pay what it costs to run 125GP. I really believe if someone got that "house in order" moto academy would be really humming. From then and through till today.

[steveyb]

Fair enough Pete, cheers.
I have to agree with what you say regarding the feeder classes, the fact is that logically that goes without saying. Actually before we even started Moto Academy NZ we (my mate Mike and I) discussed long and robustly whether we would do it with 125GP, Streetstock or other bikes. One mix was one or two Streetstocks (remembering this is before 250 Proddy really got a hold), one 125GP and one Pro-Twin, to provide a full structure in one place. But we looked at the logistics and it would have been more difficult than four 125GP bikes! I had my heart set on a Rookies Cup thing, so 125GP it was.

But I am going to stand firm and we will have to agree to disagree to some degree (that's a lot of ree's) on the point of dedicated individuals.
At the end of the day, clubs, academies, schools, whatever they may be, in our world they are each run by a small handful of people, none of whom have all of the skills needed individually and often the group also has some skill sets missing. Or they are run professionally where students pay.

There is not much mystery to getting a junior scene going, all sorts of sports have them, including MX. But I will ask, is there actually, I mean really truly, the desire of enough people in New Zealand to really have a thriving junior scene in Road Racing. I might hazard a guess, that outside of a few 'dedicated individuals' (there they are again LOL) there is actually not that desire.

I was listening to Radio Sport this arvo, talking to the CEO of Yachting NZ. He talked about two young guys that are being invested in who have both up'ed sticks and moved to Auckland because that is where their academy is based. Do we have anyone in this sport in NZ who is dedicated enough to want to do that sort of thing? (Yes, perhaps we do, witness Jake, Av and others, but they probably are no longer juniors).
Believe me, it is hard enough to get young people to get out of their own way nowadays. I simply wonder if, because road racing is such a minor sport in NZ, we can/will ever now be able to create a critical mass? All of the things you identify about growth are actually self evident I am afraid. But simply mentioning them offers no actual solutions.

If I had a wish that I could spend someone elses money on for development (junior or otherwise) it would be to create an open pathway for riders from NZ and Australia to pass readily between countries and compete in the array of meetings that are available for riders on both sides. That way riders and parents would get cross-pollinated, see something outside of Ruapuna and Manfeild and Broadford and Eastern Creek and meet lots more riders and compete against different competitors. Not just the odd one or two here and there, but groups of 10 or more, all the time.
Anyway, that's on someone elses dime.

[roogazza]

I commend Oyster and SteveB for their efforts and ideas regarding getting Road racing going again in NZ.
99% of us race for a while some longer than others and then dissappear to do something else.
The other side to the coin is the way we did things. Last night in Petone Wgton a group of mates and wives had our 6 monthly gathering at a Bistro .
Looking around at a group of up to 12 - 15 guys,all now reaching retirement age and all great mates for 45 years !
None came from a development background. We bought production bikes and went racing.
Different era yes, but it was cheap fun in a booming bike world.
An earlier post wasn't answered but the other angle is 250 Prod, then upwards from there. (as we did)

If we think about why its like it is now the answer is pretty simple.
But who knows,it may just die off,which it has to some extent already. (some hate to accept that)
I treasure the era we had and my mates from it
.(some good peddlers and national champs in amongst them too,B.Biber,Pete Fleming,Pete Stark,Hiscocks etc).

[Billy]

I commend Oyster and SteveB for their efforts and ideas regarding getting Road racing going again in NZ.
99% of us race for a while some longer than others and then dissappear to do something else.
The other side to the coin is the way we did things. Last night in Petone Wgton a group of mates and wives had our 6 monthly gathering at a Bistro .
Looking around at a group of up to 12 - 15 guys,all now reaching retirement age and all great mates for 45 years !
None came from a development background. We bought production bikes and went racing.
Different era yes, but it was cheap fun in a booming bike world.
An earlier post wasn't answered but the other angle is 250 Prod, then upwards from there. (as we did)

If we think about why its like it is now the answer is pretty simple.
But who knows,it may just die off,which it has to some extent already. (some hate to accept that)
I treasure the era we had and my mates from it
.(some good peddlers and national champs in amongst them too,B.Biber,Pete Fleming,Pete Stark,Hiscocks etc).

Too true Gary,

Stroud, Slight, Crafar, Haldane, Bernard, Kattenberg and co ALL came through 250 proddy, Affordable, Low maintenance, good old back to basics , Learn how to ride racing, It cost me about the same to have that class recognised in 2011 by supplying 5 bikes PLUS transport them South as it costs to run 2 125 GP machines for a National series, Yip it's got older more experienced competitors involved as did the older version of the class in its early years with Holden, Twoomey etc, But thats required to push the younger competitors along, Look at the difference in the level of the class simply by injecting Luke Burgess into it for 2013, EVERYBODY involved are now substantially faster than they were previous, It's a NO brainer, 125 GP is expensive and the machinery is hard to obtain, Expensive to run and unless you know where to go, The parts are hard to obtain, The only real obstacle facing 250 Prod is getting the governing body to enforce the rules in a reasonable manner, The 2013 GP at Ruapuna was classic, Not one machine in that GP title race was eligible for the class and yet the steward refused to do anything about it when I questioned them on it!!!!

[RDjase]

6 125s entered for Ruapuna
17 development Class

There must be more than 6 125s ready to race, Rapidly running out of enthusiasm to spend $ and time when the fields are so pathetic