Your suspicion? so you have no hard evidence whatsoever? what do you base this on?Originally Posted by p.dath
What do you think you wear any protective gear for Muppet
In the riders seat
Your suspicion? so you have no hard evidence whatsoever? what do you base this on?
What do you think you wear any protective gear for Muppet
"If you can make black marks on a straight from the time you turn out of a corner until the braking point of the next turn, then you have enough power."
Lost In Translation
I'm puzzled by the first statement as it seems counter-intuitive. But I know you're an analytical guy and do research stuff. Still, I am struggling. Have you got any studies you could point me to that suggest the same? Ta.
Hardcore Biker
Here's a test.
Put it on, and get a mate to wallop you in the back with a hammer.
Now take it off and try again. See how flimsy it seems after that....
Library Schooled
Pootler
What are your thoughts on helmets?
NEDWN VIII
You can still die even if you wear one, but the law insists you wear one.
Pootler
Yes, it makes it easier to clean up the mess.
Rider in training
Do you have any hard evidence if would have made a difference? I know you don't. I haven't seen any testing, anywhere, that showed anything more than the ability to reduce serious of an injury through the user of a back protector.
I think what usually happens is people would like to think it makes a difference.
Rider in training
A helmet offers significant protection against impacts. A leather jacket and pants offer significant protection against abrasion. There is lots of evidence to support this.
The problem is there are no studies (that I am aware of) that show back protectors make much difference to the injuries suffered as a result of an impact to the back. It is not because there hasn't been any studies.
So the question back to you is do you know of any studies show how much back protectors help?
I'm guess what I'm trying to say is not that back protectors won't help, because they will, but that people greatly over-estimate the protection that they offer. IMHO, if you have the expectation that they are most likely to reduce bruising and minor fractures, but that they will make almost 0% difference to your life being saved or to prevent your back being broken from a direct impact then probably have a reasonable expectation.
Lost In Translation
That is my level of expectation (I can hope for more, but luck is probably more important if I ever get to that kind of impact). But then I am not suggesting they are pointless, which is a statement that goes against the run of thinking. Note that I am not saying you are empirically incorrect (since there seems to be little peer-reviewed evidence either way), but would suggest if you want to tell the majority they are wrong it would probably help to have a bit more to back that statement up.
Speaking for myself, I look at it this way: in the absence of evidence to demonstrate that they are either neutral or detrimental, I am happy to place my money with my intuition. It's a wager of sorts and the money stakes are relatively low compared to the potential losses.
Moped rider
This thread resulted in me buying a CE2 level protector from Motomail today.
Expensive ($200), but if it decreases any potential injury then I think its worth it, and it's nice to have for future track days.
Forum whore
Having been around the traps (tracks!) for longer than I care to remember, back in the days when they were not compulsory, there was obvioulsy grumbling when the rule came in. Now days they are so ingrained into the culture, most regular racers would find it odd in the same way as racing without gloves.
In response to your comments above I may no bones about the fact I am pro good safety gear and doing everything I can to ensure I have the best I can afford and given I have 2 full sets of gear, this can get expensive as I am replacing and down grading my current kit on a regular basis when I upgrade to new kit, pensioning off the oldest stuff. (Ie new boots come, old boots go to second tier, previously 2nd tier are retired), so please take my comments with the good grace they are intended.
The world is not a digital place on/off, yes/no. In this stuff it's very analogue and "reality" is quite often different to "theory". There are multitudes of shades of grey and types, speeds etc of accidents. You could have have a major back injsury accident which is is unrelated to the wearing of a backprotector (Rainey), through to random low sides etc. I think it s more that people under estimate how much they do do.
First up a few questions or suggestions to get your head better around their capabilities:
1) have you ever pitched a bike over the high side? I have, with and without a back protector (both on track). I know what I'd be wearing next time having slid down the road after highsiding at the top of the hill at Puke (with) and mid turn 1 at Puke (without). I walked away from both (they were probably similar speeds too), but I know the with back protector accident as I was sliding was a shit load more comfortable. I get cold shivers about the one without....
2) Can you pick what sort of injury accdient you will have, before you step off ? Will it be one where the back protector will be overcome and give you a permanent injury (ie no point wearing it), or one where you will be over a ripple strip, tmbling etc with multiple lower energy impacts that will give you injuries (ie one where it is in the workable range).
3) Are you happy to remove ALL your body armour from the rest of your riding gear. It might (probably) be CE rated, but if it is just a variation of a back potector. Shoulders, forearms, tail bone, hips, elbows, knees, shins.
4) Ever been and spoken to Eddie Kattenberg? he was a very early adopter of back protectors in NZ. He was sold on it when he crashed at a street meeting and while sliding on his back, rode UP a suburban concrete curb...would you like to try that without one....I wouldn't!!
5) At the next ART day, wander down and see the Ambos. Ask them their thoughts on back protectors. They see the "after" at road accidents and race meetings, most likely lots of on road accidents without them.
There are no guarantees or certainties in any of this stuff, but there is a strong correlation to the wearing of this stuff and the ability to limit injury to low or zero rather than mid to low. ANYTHING which is practical and essentially low cost that reduces injury has to be a good thing (plus the cost over time is so low,, unlike helmets etc). There will never be any gauarantees on this stuff, and it is not a magic bubble. there will be always accidents that far outstrip what they can do, but there is likley to be far more accidents where they are in the workable range.
Come see me at the next ride day! Al
Best Frenemy you could have!
I'm definitely pro back protectors. Arguably never really had a tumble where it helped, but I'd rather have it in case something happened. Same reason why I wear boots and gloves etc.
I'm simply waiting until people start the same sort of thread, but on chest protectors. To me, just as useful as back protectors, and they're protecting all those vulnerable things like ribs and organs...
In the riders seat
If I can afford some customer made leathers next year I will be wearing one from then on, I have one friend who may not of died if he'd been wearing one
"If you can make black marks on a straight from the time you turn out of a corner until the braking point of the next turn, then you have enough power."
Fair weather rider
Would you do the same with a neck brace if it could possibly prevent further damage to your neck?This thread resulted in me buying a CE2 level protector from Motomail today.
Expensive ($200), but if it decreases any potential injury then I think its worth it, and it's nice to have for future track days.
Forum whore
Is something I'm interested in looking at further. There are road style ones coming onto the market.
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