Prime Minister Dotcom?

[Akzle]

1: What is the Alternative then - user pays for every service? because that works so well where it is implemented

4: you earn $2, pay the $1.50, save the $0.5 - I am going to ignore the anti-semetic ranting - it has no place in a civilised debate.

this is clearly over your head. Jews invented usury.

Im not talking about your little loan scenario. Im talking about the persons who print money (jews) and them who use it. Ive said it twice now. That money is lent to nations/governments AS DEBT, and THE INTEREST OF THAT LOAN IS NEVER PRINTED.
Capiche?

The PROMISARRY NOTES and LEGAL TENDER in circulation are just that. A PROMISE to pay.... When?
When there is something of value (money, in its original definition, as opposed to the currency you associate it with)

[Akzle]

the only rights you have left are to pay tax & die

the rest is... do it but don't get caught

tax? I dont pay that shit. Except gst, slightly unavoidable, but im working on it.

[Laava]

Ha, what a moron quote
Did you parents used to tell you to eat your dinner and think of the starving kids in Africa. Never mind the fact of logistics of getting your dinner there

I was trying to keep it simple so you,ld understand

But yes, I did spend a bit of time in that neck of the woods as in an earlier post. I am well aware of how warlords keep a choke hold on the entire country. And I agree with the rest of your post.

[TheDemonLord]

1. I grant you that it has been the norm, but communism had central governance and you decided that that didn't work. So central governance isn't the issue. What you seem to be alluding to is, without the threat of violence, people will do what they want and the world will descend into chaos. Theorising that that would be the case without understanding how such a system would function isn't exactly what I would call a valid critique is it?

2. Agreed, we do need to keep an eye on them... but given that people work during the day, have a family to look after for the rest of the time whilst they're awake. How will that happen? I would venture that it won't.

3. No offence taken... Why is it deluded? real reasons, not, oh it's pipe dreams, it's fairy tales, it's communism, it's stupid etc... they are not reasons and I would venture that you have ignored the salient point that people have not been educated in regards to a NOW let alone been asked whether they would live in it. As I said earlier I posted a poll on here and the result is approx 50 - 50. So 50% don't think it's deluded. They must be space cadet dummies, right?

Communism never existed. As what you seem to be referring to as communism still used a financial system. So NOW and what you call communism is apples and oranges.

Everyone got the better deal, because grass got cut and houses go built. 2 jobs that needed done and if the builder decides to cut grass as his "contribution", then who's going to build houses? Do builders only ever become builders to make money? I'm guessing not all of them started off that way, but actually wanted to build houses.

Resource scarcity will become a problem. If money is involved resources will go to those who can afford it, not necessarily those who need it. That's what you seem to be advocating.

The value will be in what the resources are used for, not what they are worth. Where is the value in resources used for producing Barbie Dolls? The world can do without Barbie Dolls, but they make money, so people will waste the resources. You're happy to accept that given that resource scarcity is on the horizon?

People aren't the problem, yes they can be cunts, but the environment under which they function encourages that behaviour. As mentioned earlier, there are billions of people who are "good", the vast majority most likely... so take theft as a for instance. Under a financial system, people can fuck people over big time by taking their money. Under NOW, that can't happen. Also, why would anyone take something from someone else if the thing that they want is free at the shops? You have changed the way people behave by changing the environment under which they function.

If it was human nature and hard wired into our genetic code, we'd be fighting like the animals and we'd all be gredy and seeking power. The vast majority of us don't, we cooperate. Perhaps those "alpha's" need to evolve coz the rest of us have moved on from beating our chests and waging war on comparitively defenseless countries. If you had have left them in a hippy household, they would have probably turned out to be pacifists. It's learned behaviour, not human nature.

So how do you explain the recent reports that state that the middle class is shrinking? It has nothing to do with mortality and has everything to do with the GFC. Of course it's rote. If it wasn't, then you couldn't learn how to answer the questions and up your IQ. You can. Go ask a 5 year old to sit an IQ test. But yeah, another topic.

1: Okay a challenge then - All you need to do to prove me wrong is point to one system that evolved across different physical, cultural, linguistical or ideological divides that is 100% compatable with all the other systems without any Central governance or body that agreed on or dictated Standards.

If you can provide an example and upon scrutiny it fulfills the criteria above - I will conceed.

2: We agree on this point but from different view points - I agree it would be nice if everyone just did their job without needing someone to oversee it - but that isn't reality is it?

3: okay this is going to take me a while because there are many factors to consider - to be highlight this, let me use an example:

In your ideal system - everyone works and contributes to society and in return is provided with the things they need - FYI - this is what they tried in Soviet Russia and failed, I don't deny that it isn't a nice idea, but it falls flat on its face in reality.

Person A is a Doctor - they have sacrificed 6 years of their life training to be a Doctor, they work in a high stress job where they have to deal with Death, Grieving and upset Family, they have to make quick decisions that often have life or death consequences. They are also required on a regular basis to work late or extended hours due to the nature of their work, they have to be oncall which often pulls them away from spending time with their family.

Person B Cuts the grass on the berms - they have no training past how to start a lawn mower, they don't need to make any real decisions, they don't have to deal with anyone, occassionally they have to work in the rain, but they also get to finish on time and spend time with their family.

Let me first ask this:

Who contributes more to society? and the follow up - assume that you say that both contribute equally to society, well let us test this - what are the consequences of each person not doing their job for a day? well in Person B's case - the grass grows maybe 1-2 CM longer but what about Person A - well someone could Die, or at the best suffer due to not getting the care they require.

So we can agree that the Consequences of their jobs not being done are vastly different thus their contributions cannot be equal.

Now Person A looks at Person B and says:

Why am I working a 60 hour week, having to deal with Stress related problems if I get the same as if I just went and cut the Grass for a 40 hour week?

Then Person A stops being a Doctor (cause there is no benefit or reward for the Extra work that is required as part of the Job) and Goes and Cuts the Grass. This is what caused the Soviet empire collapse - The lack of Incentive to work harder/smarter/longer/better than the next person.

And that is the reson why Ideas like NOW (which is really just Sociailism 2.0 - same idea that failed miserably when done in the real world, only with a new coat of paint and new technology) will fail and why it hasn't been implemented by anyone.

to answer your question do all builders become builders because of Money - No. There are a small percentage who would be Builders because it is what they Love to do and would do it regardless of the reward but all the other builders - sure I don't doubt they like their job, but would they do it if they got paid the same as what someone on the Dole gets? I doubt it.

Now onto Resource Scarcity - there are a finite number of Trees for example, and we could dish out Resources to where they are needed - until the supply ran out - then what? if there are 2 competing projects that need wood - how do you decide between them? of course you could arbitrarily assign resources, however the best way to assign resource is assigning a value to the project - what is the most convieniant way to assign Value? in Monetary terms.

Should the Dollar value of something be the only Metric we use to determine Value? now that is a different question entirely - and I agree, it shouldn't be the sole metric we look at but it is the easiest metric to measure and evaluate. if there was an objective way to measure say quality of life, then that would also be useful - but there isn't.

So yes - I am advocating that resources go to those who can afford it - does that make me a selfish asshole while half the world population is dieing in squalor - maybe, but would they do any different if the roles were reversed? I doubt it.

People are the problem, People are imperfect, thus anything created by People will be inherently flawed - Same is true of the current Financial system or the proposed NOW system.

Now in order for you to claim it wasn't base human nature - you would have to provide me with a group of People that have not exhibited their traits - they are far too universal to be learned behaviour. "we'd be fighting like the animals and we'd all be gredy and seeking power." You say this like we aren't? Syria, Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan - and these are just the ones we are involved in and know about - not to mention all the in-fighting that gets done at the local, family, individual level. Certainly it might not be as overt as 200 years ago where we are going into lesser countries and colonising them (and do you really think that in 200 years we have managed to un-learn millions of years of genetic behaviour?) but we are still going about it, except much more subtely.

As for your comment about Pacificists - funnily enough, they never seem to be able to breed enough of them to make a difference - probably because they Die out because they refuse to fight for what is theirs (Darwin strikes again!)

I have not read reports on the Middle Class shrink - Source?

and finally - 5 Year olds can and Do sit IQ tests and can score very highly - you must disasociate knowledge with Intelligence:

What is the Capital of NZ?
Auckland!

This is an Example of Knowledge - there is no way to work this out except throwing knowing the Answer

but what about this:

1,1,2,3,5,8,13, What comes next?

Now you could know that it is the Fibonacci sequence and so the next number is 21, but you could work out that the Sequence conforms to N=(N-1) + (N-2) - this doesn't require knowledge, it just requires Logic, same with pattern recognition and higher reasoning/Deductive Reasoning.

You might wish to read more on this subject:

http://childparenting.about.com/od/s...t-is-an-iq.htm

[Banditbandit]

fight against __________________

(hint: those who infringe against your rights)

How can you fight for something that doesn't exist - or how does someone infringe something that doesn';t exist?

if it comes down to who fights the best... Ninjas will win which would be pretty badass, really.

Don't want to sound pedantic BUT - the ninjas were the descendents of the people of Iga and Toga province in Japan - who fought against the Shogun and his dictatorial Samurai system - and they LOST .. and were given a choice - become the Shogun's spies or DIE ... well, guess which one they chose ..

But anyway - they LOST .. so not that great really. They were masters of propaganda tho' - and so they legends they created about themselves survive up to today ...

[Banditbandit]

Okay, lots to reply to and I am posting on my phone - excuse the brevity and typos:

Azkle - sure I might give 50% of my working life to own a house, but I also give that to be an inheritance to my hypothetical children and for That - I am truly stoked

You didnt provide an actual point with your dismissal of the short sighted comment

Next we have the notion that there wont be incompatibilities - do you know why engineering standards exist? Its because if they didnt people would just 'do it their way' imagine you went from one council area to another, the road signs are all different, the power grid ran at a different voltage, your cell phone wont work due to different frequencies etc. There are a multitude of things that require standardisation.

Finally to your balancing the books statement - the answer is fiscally responsible borrowing - something that elludes both nations and people alike - but I guess its easier to blame those evil corporations right?

Mashman

1 history has shown that without some central governance, what you think will happen is just a pipe dream.

2 Ultimately it must be we the people who keep an eye on them, as we are the ones who suffer when we dont

3 so I read that website - and I will be polite - its deluded.

Let me expand - it is communism 2.0 - but remember how it failed misrably in Russia? Let me explain.

Suppose l ask a builder to build me a house - the builder then puts in 400 hours to build my house (something that takes skill and training to do) and I contribute to society 400 hours of grass cutting (not something that requires the same level of skill)

Who got the better deal? Then the builder says 'why should I spend all my time being an apprentice when I can just cut grass and get a sweet house?'

Not to mention the problem of resource scarcity....

Unless of course we assign an arbitrary value to the goods and services that we supply that is easily divible, wildly accepted and highly mobile. Funnily enough these are the atributes of money.

In these fairy tale systems - the ultimate failure is the same one that the NOW front page pointed out in its spiel about why if all debt was wiped - we would still end up in the same position. People. People are the problem.

Onto human nature - in short there is evolutionary advantage to be greedy and seek power, dont believe me? Look at the male lion or the alpha wolf or the bull elephant. We are for the most part confirming to millions of years of genetic hard coding.


Classes shrink and grow due to biths, marriages and luck. As for tests, if you think all tests are simply a regurgitation of rote learning then you do not understand how the IQ test works - sure it isnt perfect and there is debate as to other forms of intelligence (such as emotional) but that is a different debate.

Oh stop ... I nearly split my coffee laughing ...





I wish I was that young again ... so many illusions ... so many dreams ...

[Banditbandit]

Person A is a Doctor - they have sacrificed 6 years of their life training to be a Doctor, they work in a high stress job where they have to deal with Death, Grieving and upset Family, they have to make quick decisions that often have life or death consequences. They are also required on a regular basis to work late or extended hours due to the nature of their work, they have to be oncall which often pulls them away from spending time with their family.

Person B Cuts the grass on the berms - they have no training past how to start a lawn mower, they don't need to make any real decisions, they don't have to deal with anyone, occassionally they have to work in the rain, but they also get to finish on time and spend time with their family.

Let me first ask this:

Who contributes more to society? and the follow up - assume that you say that both contribute equally to society, well let us test this - what are the consequences of each person not doing their job for a day? well in Person B's case - the grass grows maybe 1-2 CM longer but what about Person A - well someone could Die, or at the best suffer due to not getting the care they require.

So we can agree that the Consequences of their jobs not being done are vastly different thus their contributions cannot be equal.

Why do you want to place "contribution to society" as the grounds for your political philosophy? That's just buying into the neo-liberal philosophies .. and opens the door for the question "who defines it? I would suggest that medicine is a black art and that the grass cutter contributes more by improving the visual culture of the area, contributing to the visual and mental well-being of hundreds .. whereas the doctor only adds to the fear and self-doubt of a few - his patients ...

This is most obvious when you come to the examples of people who want social change - how do they "contribute to society' - they want to change it, not contribute ...

But why go down that path in the first place? Human well being is only dependent on "contributing to society" if we accept the propaganda that says it is so ..

[TheDemonLord]

Yes, on a personal level your maths stacks up. However you need to take into account where that money has come from. The $1000 has come from somewhere in order for you to be paid. Therefore the $1000 has had to be created in the form of a loan. That loan will have been issued with interest. Let's say that interest is 1%. So when that $1000 was created, the issuer expects to receive $1010 in return. Where do you find that extra $10? It has to be created. So you create that $10, but that $10 is actually $10.10 as the money has been created with the associated debt i.e. interest... boiling down to the irrefutable mathematical conclusion that there will never be enough money to repay that debt. The issuer would have to write off the $10 in order for there to be enough money in the world to repay the loan. Without question, someone has to be left with the debt that was created... and it sure as hell ain't the banks.

Therefore, it is all but impossible to be fiscally responsible when you are left with that debt. It's a case of don't get caught with the hot potato... hot potato, hot potato, hot potato... mashed banana do be do be do be do be do.

The $1000 comes from the gold Reserves held by Governments/Banks.

Whilst your example may seem logical - it is missing a key step:

I go out into the Forrest, and cut Down a tree (a really big tree) and I say the value of my Tree is $1,000, I could Barter the Tree for services I want, but barter is a rather ineffecient system with several inherant problems which Money Solved (sort of)

Someone else goes into a Mine and digs up $1,000 worth of Minerals - this is where the Generation of Money comes from - the Money we use is actually just a place holder for Gold Reserves (cause carrying around Gold is problematic)

There - you Maths problem has been solved by Primary Industries and the Generation of Wealth. from there Goods are produced from the Raw resources (secondary Industries) and then Services are provided using those Goods (tertiary Industries)

To answer your inevitable question 'What happens when there is no more of Resource X on earth' - look up to the Solar System, then out to our Galaxy and then on to our Universe and whilst Human Greed is infinite - it will take longer than my lifetime to consume all the resource in the Universe and besides.

[Banditbandit]

but what about this:

1,1,2,3,5,8,13, What comes next?

Satan???

Now you could know that it is the Fibonacci sequence and so the next number is 21, but you could work out that the Sequence conforms to N=(N-1) + (N-2) - this doesn't require knowledge, it just requires Logic, same with pattern recognition and higher reasoning/Deductive Reasoning.

What kind of logic does it require? Pattern recognition is not the same thing ... and deductive reasoning is only setting up a syllogism - or, more clearly - an argument where the conclusion does not contradict the asserted premises .. what are the asserted premises? A human-created, and therefore theoretical, numbering system. Therefore it only requires pattern recognition skills coupled with an understanding of (probably training and indoctrination in) the human created numbering system. Ask the thirteenth tree from the left what comes next ...

Logic is part of the propaganda system ... there are other ways of organising and experience the world ...

[TheDemonLord]

Why do you want to place "contribution to society" as the grounds for your political philosophy? That's just buying into the neo-liberal philosophies .. and opens the door for the question "who defines it? I would suggest that medicine is a black art and that the grass cutter contributes more by improving the visual culture of the area, contributing to the visual and mental well-being of hundreds .. whereas the doctor only adds to the fear and self-doubt of a few - his patients ...

This is most obvious when you come to the examples of people who want social change - how do they "contribute to society' - they want to change it, not contribute ...

But why go down that path in the first place? Human well being is only dependent on "contributing to society" if we accept the propaganda that says it is so ..

Cool - tell you what, lets take away all that evil Black Magic Medicine - I will place you next to someone with say:

Bubonic Plague
Polio
Whooping Cough
Tuberculosis

Or any of the myriad of highly virulent pathogens to which Modern Medicine has been able to cure/wipeout/prevent through immunisation

Then - when you are dieing in Agony, I will (in my biohazard suit) take you outside and say:

"but look at the nicely cut Grass, doesn't it contribute to your visual and Mental Well being? See, you don't need those evil Doctors, just look at the Grass"

[Akzle]

The $1000 comes from the gold Reserves held by Governments/Banks.

and whom ascribes the value to gold?

(hint, look up newtons gold standard.
A pound sterling used to be just that. A pound of sterling silver.
Last i checked gold is ~1800 'dollars' an ounce. Ten years ago it was 400, for a long while it was <200. Once, im sure, it was one 'dollar'
Go figure.)

[TheDemonLord]

Satan???

Out of curiosity - you aren't a Black Metal/Gorgoroth Fan per chance (based on that comment)

What kind of logic does it require? Pattern recognition is not the same thing ... and deductive reasoning is only setting up a syllogism - or, more clearly - an argument where the conclusion does not contradict the asserted premises .. what are the asserted premises? A human-created, and therefore theoretical, numbering system. Therefore it only requires pattern recognition skills coupled with an understanding of (probably training and indoctrination in) the human created numbering system. Ask the thirteenth tree from the left what comes next ...

Logic is part of the propaganda system ... there are other ways of organising and experience the world ...

I chose the Fibonacci sequence because it is easy to type - Shapes and patterns can be used as well - and these don't require a basic understanding of maths.

You may say that Logic is just one way of experiancing the world - but it has been responsible for 99.9999% of the advancements of Humanity and the understanding of the world around us. If there was a competing system that had even a slightly comparable success rate - I would concede, but there isn't.

[Akzle]

See, you don't need those evil Doctors, just look at the Grass"

*smoke .

[Banditbandit]

BUGGER - last time - because I don't want to get sucked into this argument ...

The $1000 comes from the gold Reserves held by Governments/Banks.

These do not exist any more - and were based on a fictitious assignment of value to a lump of rock ..

Whilst your example may seem logical - it is missing a key step:

I go out into the Forrest, and cut Down a tree (a really big tree) and I say the value of my Tree is $1,000, I could Barter the Tree for services I want, but barter is a rather ineffecient system with several inherant problems which Money Solved (sort of)

How do you value the tree at $1,000? Some fictitious assignment of a monetary value to your time? The tree has cost you nothing except your time and tools ... the assignment of value is purely arbitrary

Someone else goes into a Mine and digs up $1,000 worth of Minerals - this is where the Generation of Money comes from

Again - the arbitrary assignment of a money value ...

- the Money we use is actually just a place holder for Gold Reserves (cause carrying around Gold is problematic)

You are wrong - it is a place holder for an arbitrarily assigned value. And therefore it has no reality outside the human mind ... as no human-created value has ..

[QUOTE]There - you Maths problem has been solved by Primary Industries and the Generation of Wealth.['QUOTE]

And heaps of other problems created

from there Goods are produced from the Raw resources (secondary Industries) and then Services are provided using those Goods (tertiary Industries)

To answer your inevitable question 'What happens when there is no more of Resource X on earth' - look up to the Solar System, then out to our Galaxy and then on to our Universe and whilst Human Greed is infinite - it will take longer than my lifetime to consume all the resource in the Universe and besides.

Bwhahahahahaha .. I bet you read a lot of science fiction ...

[TheDemonLord]

and whom ascribes the value to gold?

(hint, look up newtons gold standard.
A pound sterling used to be just that. A pound of sterling silver.
Last i checked gold is ~1800 'dollars' an ounce. Ten years ago it was 400, for a long while it was <200. Once, im sure, it was one 'dollar'
Go figure.)

the Scarcity of Resource does - if suddenly a massive gold reserver was found, the value of Gold would decrease as there was an increase in supply. however the supply of Gold has been more difficult - gone are the days of hand mining and panning and being able to find large nuggets just lieing about - thus as it becomes more difficult to aquire new gold - the price of Gold goes up