Prime Minister Dotcom?

[Ocean1]

Good question but are you only assuming that they (China) are not already under the "small groups" interest or control!

No.

They're not under the control of the "small group" because they didn't borrow money from them.

They're currently more powerful than those bogymen for the same reason: they've lent rather a lot more money than those "small groups".

Neither a borrower nor a lender be....

Besides which if needed there are always the guns of America and the rest of the "free world" to call upon should they be required! (All been done before)

In which case China is in rather a better position to purchase more and better guns.

Financed, I might add, via the good offices of western consumers and their very own cheap as chips peasant labourers.

[oldrider]

No.

They're not under the control of the "small group" because they didn't borrow money from them.

They're currently more powerful than those bogymen for the same reason: they've lent rather a lot more money than those "small groups".

Neither a borrower nor a lender be....



In which case China is in rather a better position to purchase more and better guns.

Financed, I might add, via the good offices of western consumers and their very own cheap as chips peasant labourers.

1) China may only be where they are because the "small group" wanted it that way and are pulling their strings accordingly.

2) Unbelevibly the chess pieces in this world game are completely under their control they have been at it for centries and have almost every eventuality covered.

3) Whatever direction the future takes it will cost countless innocent people their lives, as has been past practice for this dominant group!

This can be brushed aside as pure fantasy and dismissed accordingly but that is how people felt way back before the advent of the two world wars!

Unfortunately they and all the unbelevible subsequent "mini conflicts" have been real and are still continueing at the will and behest of this same group!

It would be gratifying to be proved wrong about this but unfortunately I believe that will not be the case!

[Ocean1]

It would be gratifying to be proved wrong about this but unfortunately I believe that will not be the case!

No free will whatsoever, eh?

Sounds just a little fatalistic John.

I don't believe that any group employing the methods you suggest could fail to be a bloody sight more obvious about their activities than has been the case over that timeframe.

You can fool only some of the people all of the time...

[oldrider]

No free will whatsoever, eh?

Sounds just a little fatalistic John.

I don't believe that any group employing the methods you suggest could fail to be a bloody sight more obvious about their activities than has been the case over that timeframe.

You can fool only some of the people all of the time...

Fair enough, I came into this world at the start of WW2 and at the end of that I tried to find out for my own peace of mind how such a thing could happen.

Information gathering was not as easy as it is today and the common denominator that always came up even way back then has always been this "small group"!

Subsequent world event causes continue to point in the direction of the same group right up to today and even looking beyond.

When you narrow everything down as to who benefits it still leads to the same group so until that is changed progress in any direction will always be subject to their will.

What to do about it? Frankly I have no idea, powerful world figures have tried and had paid for their efforts with their lives as have countless millions of innocents!

To know about it is one thing to try and counter it is beyond my comprehension!

There are times when I wish that I had never bothered to try to understand. Ignorance they say, is bliss!

[Ocean1]

What to do about it? Frankly I have no idea, powerful world figures have tried and had paid for their efforts with their lives as have countless millions of innocents!

I thought we'd cleared that bit up: Don't borrow their money. It's not a lot different to the advice you'd probably give about how to deal with any group who's behaviour you believe to be obnoxious: Don't play in their sandpit.

Why would you, (personally or nationally) give them power over you by dealing with them? You reap what you sew, the whole concept of saving for your stuff seems to have gone by the wayside, and until that changes the bogymen will continue to hold sway.

[oldrider]

I thought we'd cleared that bit up: Don't borrow their money. It's not a lot different to the advice you'd probably give about how to deal with any group who's behaviour you believe to be obnoxious: Don't play in their sandpit.

Why would you, (personally or nationally) give them power over you by dealing with them? You reap what you sew, the whole concept of saving for your stuff seems to have gone by the wayside, and until that changes the bogymen will continue to hold sway.

True but as the saying goes "no man is an island" we are so dependant on each other and the systems that our forebears have evolved for us to use it is difficult to swim against the current or even ignore it and go our own way without great difficulty or even experiencing ultimate failure.

Then again as mashman is experiencing the difficulty in persuading others that there may be another way is a long complicated road to take.

If he were to win then the group in question will infiltrate and iether take over or kill the initiative to regain their current situation.

My wife and I have no debt but that is very much under threat daily with constantly rising costs just to simply exist, it is even getting almost too expensive to die today!

Our plan is to make sure that we do not out live our money supply but that too is getting trickier by the day, more especially when changes of government occur!

If we die and have no means it places the burden on our children to carry the cost of our funeral, failing that it falls upon the taxpayer.

My signature tells it as I see it and even the "whole banking industry" is subject to the will of the masters of that same small group at the controlling end.

[avgas]

Wait. We still talking about .com?

[TheDemonLord]

A natural progression.

So then, it is not a completely compatible system - thus my original point that I raised on this - that in order to achieve compatability some form of central governance is required stands

You have proven nothing. You have assumed. I agreed with your assumption. It's still an assumption. You just haven't been in a position to stress you then.

I base my assumptions on empirical and Anecdotal evidence, what have you based your assumptions on?

How do you know I have never been in a position of Stress? how do you define or even Rank Stress? Does the 'Stress' of some Dole Bludging layabout that they feel cause they can't get their pack of smokes compare to say the Stress of a Soldier who is pinned down by automatic fire and has watched some of his best friends get shot? There are times I have been stressed and not once have I ever thought of Turning to crime.

You quite obviously don't. You no listen.

I read the information you provided, and agree its a nice theory, but without rewarding people relative to their contribution, it will fail.

What, you can't just walk into a room without greeting people?

You can, but if everyone did that, Society would fail (people would never talk, communicate, have relationships, have children etc.) again - impossible to have a social society without social interactions of which greeting is the first social interaction.

Not everyone does everything for reward either. You really don't get it bwaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaa. My 10 year old does. It won't be forcing anyone to do anything, neither will NOW.

Given the current system I will be paying people for the design of NOW. It's not a hard concept to grasp as that's what currently happens.

Which is it then? either some people do things without reward - in which case you can design your system NOW (pun intended) or no one does things without reward and you need to pay them.

And to throw you a Bone - some people do do things for the love of Doing them - I believe you referenced Linux as an example so I put a challenge to you - if Linus can create an OS that has been improved by multiple programmers from different nationalities, faiths, backgrounds etc. and subsequently formed into a fully working OS (I have Ubuntu and Xubuntu running somewhere, used to have a Debian box but Decommed it)

Why can't you fully form your financial system?

I'm not competing. Again, something you fail to grasp. You won 30 posts ago... not sure what, but you did, now go and reward yourself. Cutting remark? Where, I must have missed it.

Sweet, if I won, then you conceed that NOW isn't a perfect solution and without accounting for the human factor is doomed to failure?

Are those wars still on? I'm surprised the US and their Nobel Prize winning puppet hasn't stopped them.

Somalia certainly is - remember many pages ago I made the critique of the US picking and choosing which wars it fights, whereas there are many countries that are suffering horrendous civil conflicts that IMO equally deserve attention.

Like I said, you won.

See above

You must greet people in the strangest of ways.

Don't we all?

So IS Mugabe... but they still haven't gone after him. I agree with removing him a la Osama, but not the war that took place.

You are right, Mugabe needs his front door kicked in with a Tank Shell, see above and previously for my thoughts on this

Not everyone needs to work together, show personal responsibility etc... Similar is not the same.

Actually, everyone does need to work together, because the moment enough people realise they can get all they want for free, without any effort, they will. and then the Stack of Cards falls down - Capitalism doesn't suffer this problem because if people refuse to work, they don't get provided with anything - the system lives on.

Yeah you did. It was a real doozy to.. I don't think I'm ever going to recover from it.

You didn't answer the question - Do you Cross the border? Is there sometimes a justification for War?

Oh right... I'll remember to remind the travel agent not to order me any money until I give them mine first.

so your travel agent orders you money for free without you paying them for it?

Cool - whats the name of your Travel Agent again? I have some holidays I need to book and some Free money to order.

Did I say there were no tills? Did I say there were no Credit Car companies?

Virtual Money means Virtual Tills as there is no change, there is no need for a Till - its an extension of Logic. Virtual money also means Virtual Credit Cards - same reason

No, you translated what you thought I meant incorrectly. As you have every single time you've put words into my mouth.

Then your explanation was poor as it left room to be interpreted other than what you meant. This is something Lawyers have to learn how to do, writing documents in Legal English in order to avoid mis-interpretation

People don't change eh? You don't look very hard do ya.

Lets compare now to 2,000 years ago then:

Are we still killing people over which God(s) is better - Yup
Are we still fighting wars with each other - Yup
Do we still have Capital punishment in the Western World - Yup
Are the Jews still getting Persecuted - Yup
Do we still build armies/weapons for defence - Yup
Do we still have politicians that Argue and Debate - Yup
Do we still rely on those less fortunate than us for menial labour - Yup
Do we still have Families - Yup

(I could go on, but you get the idea, yes there has been some major advances in technology and some advances in Law and Human rights, but ultimately, there are many things that we are still doing now that we did 2000 years ago and this is the essence of my point, we haven't changed much in this regard)

Why, what happened to them?

Did they run out of money?

No, the Population stopped working hard and innovating because there was little to no reward to. Once the population stops working hard, productivity drops, the GDP drops, your power to import goods and services into the country drops, meaning there is another drop in productivity (can't make items without resources) etc. etc.

Exactly what will happen under NOW.

[oldrider]

Wait. We still talking about .com?

In a way ... yes ... so what the fuck has KDC got to offer NZ other than a minor one horse strategy that suits his "own" ends?

[mashman]

I've changed the order of some posts and ignored many of them to try to keep us in the NOW. But this should address the posts that I haven't responded to directly also:

I read the information you provided, and agree its a nice theory, but without rewarding people relative to their contribution, it will fail.

You're speaking for everyone without asking them and drawing a conslusion based on the behaviour of people under the system that currently exists. The outcome is unknown. You say it will fail. I disagree.

Sweet, if I won, then you conceed that NOW isn't a perfect solution and without accounting for the human factor is doomed to failure?

I've stated that NOW isn't a perfect solution, but you seem to be under the illusion that human beings are suddenly going to change. I'm not. They can, but I doubt it's going to matter too much unless a critical mass of people decide to do fuck all and we have to go back to a financial system. That critical mass will likely be calculated by some smart fulla when the time comes.

No, the Population stopped working hard and innovating because there was little to no reward to. Once the population stops working hard, productivity drops, the GDP drops, your power to import goods and services into the country drops, meaning there is another drop in productivity (can't make items without resources) etc. etc.

Exactly what will happen under NOW.

Why will this happen under NOW? You're throwing financial terms around where NOW doesn't rely on a financial system. You have to realise that if the critical mass have voted for NOW that they'll understand that there will be no financial system i.e. no financial reward etc... If they have voted for it, then they have accepted that. At which point in time, NOW will work. There is no logic or reason you can throw into the mix that can deny that as a statement of fact. The ONLY thing will be if a critical mass of workers stop... and then you get your "Russian" example.

Which is it then? either some people do things without reward - in which case you can design your system NOW (pun intended) or no one does things without reward and you need to pay them.

And to throw you a Bone - some people do do things for the love of Doing them - I believe you referenced Linux as an example so I put a challenge to you - if Linus can create an OS that has been improved by multiple programmers from different nationalities, faiths, backgrounds etc. and subsequently formed into a fully working OS (I have Ubuntu and Xubuntu running somewhere, used to have a Debian box but Decommed it)

Why can't you fully form your financial system?

Nearly fell off my chair when I saw the question mark. Only those who seek financial rewards will be affected. As we haven't asked everyone, we'll have to wait and see whether there are sufficient enough numbers i.e. when it's voted on. I saw a lead Doctor on TV the other day (was on Max Keiser) and they were discussing the privatisation of the NHS. Keiser mentioned that his salary would quadruple if he worked for a private contractor, to which he answered, it's not about the money, it's about helping people. Perhaps there are more people out there doing the really important jobs than you or I know... but this is why I would like to find out.

When I said Ubuntu, I wasn't referencing an operating system:

A story of Ubuntu – I am what I am because of who we all are

An anthropologist studying the habits and customs of an African tribe found himself surrounded by children most days. So he decided to play a little game with them. He managed to get candy from the nearest town and put it all in a decorated basket at the foot of a tree.

Then he called the children and suggested they play the game. When the anthropologist said “now”, the children had to run to the tree and the first one to get there could have all the candy to him/herself.

So the children all lined up waiting for the signal. When the anthropologist said “now”, all of the children took each other by the hand ran together towards the tree. They all arrived at the same time divided up the candy, sat down and began to happily munch away.

The anthropologist went over to them and asked why they had all run together when any one of them could have had the candy all to themselves.

The children responded: “Ubuntu. How could any one of us be happy if all the others were sad?”

Ubuntu is a philosophy of African tribes that can be summed up as “I am what I am because of who we all are.”

How long did it take Linus to write his OS and how many people have since helped him "upgrade" it? My financial system is fully formed, however you don't like the answer. Quite simply put, all jobs currently being done, all imports currently being imported/exports, all behaviours that an individual exhibits stay the same and the financial system is virtualised. You have a functioning system, because it currently functions and NOW isn't changing that. It will respond to any changes that the smart people believe will make "efficiencies" (that involves the devolution of central governance into localised areas, councils if you will), but that's entirely secondary. As you say, nice idea, but what about the reaction of the people... Will they keep doing their jobs etc...? NOW can deal with a critical mass of people not doing their jobs. Here's where we get into reward, well, punishment for those "lazy bludgers". Local society MAY not "serve" those "bludgers" other than to "serve" them the bare essentials. The more devolved the governnance, the easier it will be to identify the "bludger". If there is a mechanism required for identifying "bludgers", then I'm sure some smarty pants will come up with one, but it won't be one that financially penalises them, as there will be no money.

The virtualisation of money is nothing more than not haveing currency floating around in the local economy. People will still need to invoice where they invoice, beep a checkout point where they beep it, scan a card etc... if for no other purpose than we're still going to need a stocktake. The money will go into NZ Inc bank (individual accounts for failover) and life will go on.

[mashman]

In a way ... yes ... so what the fuck has KDC got to offer NZ other than a minor one horse strategy that suits his "own" ends?

Wot J said.

Edity: Let's give the guy some credit for a second.

The media are reporting that KDC will eat into the labour/green vote. This is only a bad thing if for labour/green if KDC then takes his vote to national. For arguments sake let's say he keeps it on the left. IF KDC has gotten the disenfranchised off of their arses to vote, then it would stand to reason that a coalition of labour/green & internez party would topple the natz. This only really proves that the media haven't got a fuckin clue... and the outcome is that w end up under a different govt with a slightly different ideology, which as we know means absolutely fuck all in the grand scale of things. Although having said that, I do find it much more hilarious when the right whinge start to moan about business suffering due to a more socially focused policy than vice versa.

[Akzle]

i've got the fucking munchies and nothing to munch.

[puddytat]

i've got the fucking munchies and nothing to munch.

Fuck...no weetbix?
I just had a dot.com size bowlfull...now for a wafer

[Akzle]

Fuck...no weetbix?
I just had a dot.com size bowlfull...now for a wafer

got weetbix, but im off carbs :S

[avgas]

got weetbix, but im off carbs :S

I hear bullshit is high in fiber.