NZSBK Round 2 - dispute

[Billy]

Lol. Mate...one thing I've never done is hide what was going on with my KR1SP. Not once! But no, no gutted pipes, special head gskts or shock I can assure you. Gentleman Jim saw mine in it's entiriety. Hey I see on FB you were in Welly recently...always a spare room for ya in my aprtment if you ever need it and want to tell tall stories of years gone by! I'm always up for it. And regarding proddie racing...I reckon the only way it's ever gonna be straight forward is when you have a pool of bikes and draw number from a hat. Pity rr in NZ ain't big enough to support such a thing.

Yea,I know what the KR1sP's had,Those other mods were on some South Island RGVs.


Yea,Didn't make it to Welly,Was planning on calling into your shop on the Saturday morning,BUT,The radiator in the van blew the tank clean off the radiator,Right smack in the middle of the desert road,BRILLIANT!!!! Took me 2 1/2 days to get back to Tauranga LOL,Give us a call when your in Tauranga at that flas hotel,Its not far from mine,I'll call in.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Yea,I know what the KR1sP's had,Those other mods were on some South Island RGVs.


Yea,Didn't make it to Welly,Was planning on calling into your shop on the Saturday morning,BUT,The radiator in the van blew the tank clean off the radiator,Right smack in the middle of the desert road,BRILLIANT!!!! Took me 2 1/2 days to get back to Tauranga LOL,Give us a call when your in Tauranga at that flas hotel,Its not far from mine,I'll call in.

Yeah fucking clean forgot that's where you reside mate...and I certainly will do! Sorry to hear about your van. I so don't miss being a car mechanic. Nice soft hands now...

[oyster]

250 twin four stroke goes way back to a trackside discussion, Tony Greiving and Myself,( Peter Jones) at teretonga about 9 years ago. Streetstock was growing so fast we wondered how we'd find enough bikes. And so the learner approved 250 bike looked good, but it wasn't needed, we scoured the country and found 150's, one year about 4 a month were needed to fill the "register' with around 90 known bikes. 250 prod was hatched in 2009 when Geoff Cain and myself met the Kawasaki top brass in Auckland, they offered a deal to trial the EX250, we chose Seth Devereux as the c.... test dummy (can't use the c word) Seth was super fussy to ensure compliance, he often asked me and if I wasn't sure I referred him to the commission, Paul Stewart back then. Then the rules got firmly set, Kev Goddard on the phone and we discussed and decided matters such as wets, warmers and most importantly, could a youngster ride one. The answer was no, it not's so much the speed but the size of the bike. The Hyosung in particular far to big for a 35kg 13 year old. Seth did a great job, slugged it out with the 150's, after all, the intent was to provide an equal tech option for Streetstock , leaving an opportunity for it to "splinter off" on it's own if it became popular / effective. Now here's the (my) punchline. The next machine came along, from South Canterbury, a repaired road wreck. Straight away it was easy to see a number of rule noncompliances. It was right there and then the firm, polite but discrete "no" needed to be sounded from the club level leadership. That's how cheating should be managed, firm, discrete and as early as detected. That's the "fence" at the top of the cliff. Last year I witnessed the tech checks where many bikes failed, then they went out and rode the GP, a NZtitle race, presumably without penalty! Another rider fell off and continued riding! Someone tell I've got this all wrong, but I really worried this is not just a lack of a fence, but an invitation to flout the rules, and "see how we go". Predictably, there's now this expensive, damaging "train wreck" at the bottom of the cliff. Sorry I if I sound critical, it's just Paul Stewart, a wise man who coached me, and predicted this type of evolution. A real shame. How many views on this thread? bout 6000? That's 12000 eyes that could've spotted the little non compliant "niggles" and said something (discrete) to nip the rot in the bud. No criticism of Billie, top man doin his best. If there's blame, it's people like me, sitting on our hands, knowing the problem is coming, not acting early.

[ellipsis]

No criticism of Billie, top man doin his best. If there's blame, it's people like me, sitting on our hands, knowing the problem is coming, not acting early.

...the problem is of all our making Pete...time for all involved to look at what our sport could be, from the bottom up as much as from the top down...

[Billy]

250 twin four stroke goes way back to a trackside discussion, Tony Greiving and Myself,( Peter Jones) at teretonga about 9 years ago. Streetstock was growing so fast we wondered how we'd find enough bikes. And so the learner approved 250 bike looked good, but it wasn't needed, we scoured the country and found 150's, one year about 4 a month were needed to fill the "register' with around 90 known bikes. 250 prod was hatched in 2009 when Geoff Cain and myself met the Kawasaki top brass in Auckland, they offered a deal to trial the EX250, we chose Seth Devereux as the c.... test dummy (can't use the c word) Seth was super fussy to ensure compliance, he often asked me and if I wasn't sure I referred him to the commission, Paul Stewart back then. Then the rules got firmly set, Kev Goddard on the phone and we discussed and decided matters such as wets, warmers and most importantly, could a youngster ride one. The answer was no, it not's so much the speed but the size of the bike. The Hyosung in particular far to big for a 35kg 13 year old. Seth did a great job, slugged it out with the 150's, after all, the intent was to provide an equal tech option for Streetstock , leaving an opportunity for it to "splinter off" on it's own if it became popular / effective. Now here's the (my) punchline. The next machine came along, from South Canterbury, a repaired road wreck. Straight away it was easy to see a number of rule noncompliances. It was right there and then the firm, polite but discrete "no" needed to be sounded from the club level leadership. That's how cheating should be managed, firm, discrete and as early as detected. That's the "fence" at the top of the cliff. Last year I witnessed the tech checks where many bikes failed, then they went out and rode the GP, a NZtitle race, presumably without penalty! Another rider fell off and continued riding! Someone tell I've got this all wrong, but I really worried this is not just a lack of a fence, but an invitation to flout the rules, and "see how we go". Predictably, there's now this expensive, damaging "train wreck" at the bottom of the cliff. Sorry I if I sound critical, it's just Paul Stewart, a wise man who coached me, and predicted this type of evolution. A real shame. How many views on this thread? bout 6000? That's 12000 eyes that could've spotted the little non compliant "niggles" and said something (discrete) to nip the rot in the bud. No criticism of Billie, top man doin his best. If there's blame, it's people like me, sitting on our hands, knowing the problem is coming, not acting early.

Yip,

Can't disagree with much of that Pete,Especially the section on last year,Both myself AND Rob Lewis questioned the steward on the GP decision,But that person held firm,The situation worsened as we went South and eventually ruined the class for the North Island rounds as many boycotted,So for 2014 I took over the role of tech officer to ensure that things were handled in a manner I thought it should be,Wasn't well received by some and I took the time to meet with one team inbetween rounds just to clarify a few things and listen to any concerns they had and wel,Here we are as you say,A train wreck that is yet again being boycotted by many for the North Island rounds,Not sure where to from here for the class,But due to reasons I cannot yet make public(Personal) I will not be taking any further part.

You did miss out one vital part of your story,The,Then commission would not recognise the class unless there were 6 on the grid for round 1 of the championship series,As the class had been in the rulebook for 2 years without running officially,They were going to have it removed as the rulebook demanded,Until I got involved and started lobbying those in the south island to get the job done for the 2011 series,As late in 2010 as October even Seth was not going to use his 250 for the 2011 series,But had chosen to opt for his trusty KR in the streetstock class,I persuaded him to change his mind and then (Short version) I brought and prepared 5 of them,As it turned out I left one at home so I gould fit in the Hyosung NZ sponsored machine of Max Woodly,At round 1 race 1 there were 8 on the grid and the clas was not only saved,But in the rulebook for as long as it is required,How do I feel about that effort now????Absolutely gutted,Worst $35-$40k I have ever spent,The president wanted to pull the pin after the 2012 fiasco but I refused,I wonder now whether I did the right thing?

[Deano]

I was told that there is dyno testing carried out in GB for proddy bike championships. I'd be happy to pay a bit extra on my entry for a dyno run at the end of the odd round, for the top three bikes. I assume that there is dyno data available to show standard deviations in HP ? Can't be that hard - I know of at least one mobile dyno which was has been at Levels.

[Billy]

I was told that there is dyno testing carried out in GB for proddy bike championships. I'd be happy to pay a bit extra on my entry for a dyno run at the end of the odd round, for the top three bikes. I assume that there is dyno data available to show standard deviations in HP ? Can't be that hard - I know of at least one mobile dyno which was has been at Levels.

Yea,

The idea sounds good in theory,But would require another MNZ official to be present for each run and the runs would have to be performed as soon as the bikes come in from their respective races,To be sure they hadn't gone back to their pit area and altered something,Plus I think from memory I was told Mr Harris wanted $2500 per round plus a fee per run and thats for the SI rounds,Adds up cost wise pretty quickly and peeps are already whining about the fees,Not everybody thinks like you mate

[oyster]

Yep, you put in a great effort to kick start the class. I'm familiar with the effort and risk as years earlier streetstock was built from 2 to 30 on the grid. When "the new thing" was pushed by the commission i thought it would need the same key ingredients used to develop streetstock. Promote, recruit, train, support and recognize. Any of those missing and it will fail, same as any sports, community or commercial enterprise. Strange to say it, as i don't really like the hyosung cup concept, but it definitely had those key ingredients. Look how in 5 mins it had a full grid!

[oyster]

About 5 years ago streetstock was humming along as a 3 round national support series. Kids came from all over nz, even oz. There was enthusiasm to make it a full blown nz championship. I agreed until wise paul stewart explained how what we had was perfect. Why risk it? He said champ status would bring out the chequebooks, cheaters, ex champions just looking for an easy trophy, "rent a winner"riders anf all the negative things that would discourage a keen young rider doing his/her best. Besides, he said, a young person can ride at nat level already. 125 at 13yrs, protwin at 15. I realised he was right.

[Billy]

Yep, you put in a great effort to kick start the class. I'm familiar with the effort and risk as years earlier streetstock was built from 2 to 30 on the grid. When "the new thing" was pushed by the commission i thought it would need the same key ingredients used to develop streetstock. Promote, recruit, train, support and recognize. Any of those missing and it will fail, same as any sports, community or commercial enterprise. Strange to say it, as i don't really like the hyosung cup concept, but it definitely had those key ingredients. Look how in 5 mins it had a full grid!

Yea,

It wasn't really about the effort put in so much as what its turned into,What have we got,A handful of Ninja's in the South Island,3 or 4 in the North and around 35 Hyosungs in the cup,Problem is,The Hyo boys won't do the National events unless the class is policed in a reasonable manner,3 years in a row now that has failed to happen for a variety of reasons.

FACT,
2012, 4 Hyosungs should have been excluded from round 1 at Ruapuna for having metal removed from the sidestand brackets.....Overturned at appeal
2013 Most of the feild should have been excluded from round 1 at ruapuna,7 machines with illegal air filter elements and a number of others with sidestand switches removed and undercut gearboxes....Steward ignored them and issued warnings
2014 Following extensive technical checks and an impound a machine was found to be in breach of several rules,Some serious,Some not so much.......AGAIN despite not being bound by the appeal document the appeal committee failed to use commonsense leaving the steward exposed,In accordance with the manual further infringements could be issued,But the steward involved has given up and decided that if he is not able to rely on the organisation to back him when required,To walk away from his position and I have it on good authority that more key volunteers are set to go as well,The Hyo riders are satisfied they have made the right decision and will continue to stay away in their droves,The credibility of anybody coming out of the class is tarnished and the class is dead in the water,IF I was staying on as commissioner,First rulechange proposal I would put forward would be to remove the class from the championship appendix

[quickbuck]

,IF I was staying on as commissioner,First rulechange proposal I would put forward would be to remove the class from the championship appendix

From where I sit that would be pretty gutting....... It is a shame there are only 7 Ninja 250 R riders in the lower North Island... Yes 7. Some don't enter every round, and one is just starting out.... Because I always have riders in other classes complaining about costs. These tend to be guys who are mid pack on a 600 at Club Level..... Go figure.

Personally I don't like the term Development or Entry Level when it comes to 250 Production. Yes you can achieve both of those things, but it is the terms that conjurer up the wrong impression to some riders who should actually sell their 600 and learn to actually race a 250.

If 250 Production is taken off the National Championship Appendix then can we replace it with 500 Production? After all quite a few 250 racers ate actually too heavy for them (me included).












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[Billy]

From where I sit that would be pretty gutting....... It is a shame there are only 7 Ninja 250 R riders in the lower North Island... Yes 7. Some don't enter every round, and one is just starting out.... Because I always have riders in other classes complaining about costs. These tend to be guys who are mid pack on a 600 at Club Level..... Go figure.

Personally I don't like the term Development or Entry Level when it comes to 250 Production. Yes you can achieve both of those things, but it is the terms that conjurer up the wrong impression to some riders who should actually sell their 600 and learn to actually race a 250.

If 250 Production is taken off the National Championship Appendix then can we replace it with 500 Production? After all quite a few 250 racers ate actually too heavy for them (me included).












Sent from my Nokia using Tapa talk.

Doesn't matter what the class is,If its not policed in a fair and reasonable manner,Then it will just end up the same as this one has.

[MVnut]

I have written and rewritten a reply a dozen times but before I post I seem to come to the same conclusion so I erase my words..........bottom line is we need more people who actually give a sh*t about racing in NZ and why it is in such a poor state (the worst it's been in ever???)

[oyster]

500 production? What's wrong with 650 production, we already have it. Re 250 numbers, bout 12 at last round here, and that was minus a few regulars. But really, they're only lapping around bucket/streetstock times and the rider demograph the same. At the same meeting plenty of protwin and 125 activity, this is where the ambitious ones head, and way faster too of course. History shows these two classes produce your new elite. How many have come from 250 prod? None. 250 should be as originally intended, a technical alternative to the 150 two stroke in streetstock. Baillie has done very well, but for the money and effort protwin or 125gp would havr served him better.

[The Chow]

Yea,

It wasn't really about the effort put in so much as what its turned into,What have we got,A handful of Ninja's in the South Island,3 or 4 in the North and around 35 Hyosungs in the cup,Problem is,The Hyo boys won't do the National events unless the class is policed in a reasonable manner,3 years in a row now that has failed to happen for a variety of reasons.

FACT,
2012, 4 Hyosungs should have been excluded from round 1 at Ruapuna for having metal removed from the sidestand brackets.....Overturned at appeal
2013 Most of the feild should have been excluded from round 1 at ruapuna,7 machines with illegal air filter elements and a number of others with sidestand switches removed and undercut gearboxes....Steward ignored them and issued warnings
2014 Following extensive technical checks and an impound a machine was found to be in breach of several rules,Some serious,Some not so much.......AGAIN despite not being bound by the appeal document the appeal committee failed to use commonsense leaving the steward exposed,In accordance with the manual further infringements could be issued,But the steward involved has given up and decided that if he is not able to rely on the organisation to back him when required,To walk away from his position and I have it on good authority that more key volunteers are set to go as well,The Hyo riders are satisfied they have made the right decision and will continue to stay away in their droves,The credibility of anybody coming out of the class is tarnished and the class is dead in the water,IF I was staying on as commissioner,First rulechange proposal I would put forward would be to remove the class from the championship appendix

I walked last year , and am real glad I did , the way forward isn't the way things are now , for that matter it doesn't matter how they have been in the past we are in the 21st century , the current governance model is flawed and needs a clean out , by the way it NOT just now which is the problem it has been like that with former CEO's , boards , presidents etc for decades." Time to take a complete 360 degree look at the Elephant in the room "(Not my quote) and look at another way for Road Racing. Dirt has already done it.